It does not take much for my mind to engage in a bit of lateral thinking, and for me to see biblical applications everywhere. I could get a full time job just offering the busy pastor helpful and up-to-date sermon illustrations! Every day the connections easily come to me.
Let me give you an example from just today. This morning I was reading in Galatians, and I again noted a “sin list” which is found so often in the New Testament. Found in Galatians 5:19-21, it is a typical list of sinful behaviours which the believer should flee from:
“The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Here are some other such lists:
Mark 7:21-22
Romans 1:24-31
Rom 13:13
1 Cor 5:10-11
1 Cor 6:9-10
2 Cor 12:20
Eph 4:19, 31
Eph 5:3-5
Col 3:5-9
1 Tim 1:9-10
1 Tim 6:3-5
2 Tim 3:1-5
Tit 3:3
Rev 21:8
Note here that Paul says those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Yet far too many duped believers today will tell you that it does not matter what you do or don’t do – it is all about relationship. To be worried about dos and don’ts we are told is legalism, and we should just focus on loving God.
But of course as Jesus made perfectly clear, we cannot claim to love God if we do not obey him. Consider just a few passages from the gospel of John in this regard:
John 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
So what is the connection here I was speaking about? Just moments after reading Galatians 5, I read about a so-called Christian Swingers website. Yes you heard me right. It is possible it is all just a joke (who could actually be this dumb or this deceived after all), yet it appears to be the real deal.
You can check it out yourself (but don’t you dare join up): http://www.christianswingers.com/
It says this on its homepage: “Christian Swingers – New Dating Site For Faithful Couples
“For Christian Swingers things are not easy – often other religious people judge you, out of ignorance or envy, telling you that your lifestyle and love practices are wrong. But the Bible teaches us ‘Judge not lest ye be judged’ and there’s that verse about the first stone… but if you’re keen on keeping your privacy, well – yours, and don’t want your friends, coworkers, other PTA members or just about anyone else to know that you don’t have a problem with faith and enjoying free love with other couples, this site can help you! It’s designed to cater to the needs of those like you: devout Christian couples who still want to have an active love life and share it with another, in good faith!
“Skip the swingers’ club and meetings where you can be seen and avoid bad reputation – your personal life is something shared between you and our partner; other couples willing to join you are probably having the same problems. Visiting this site might change your life for the better and increase the number of your potential dating partners – a few simple steps in the registration process will open up a whole new virtual world of possibilities! Since privacy is an issue here, you can still choose to remain anonymous until you decide to trust someone enough to share such personal information – something that’s not possible in classic swingers’ meetings and clubs, which might even lean towards openness and promotion is this lifestyle. Visit our club and discover other Christian couples with the same interests and desires who find you hot – Christian Swingers website will make your life easier and give you more access to potential dating partners!
“All members and/or models displayed on this website were 18 years or older at the time the image was submitted to this web property in accordance with federal laws. Further, all members of this dating site MUST be 18 years or older.”
As I say, it almost seems to be just one big send-up. But tragically it appears to be legit. And if so, then these clowns are simply lying and lusting their way into hell. The above sin lists make it perfectly clear that behaviour does matter, and those who engage in known sin, and refuse to repent of it, are heading straight for the pit of hell.
We have so watered down the gospel and so bought into cheap grace and fake Christianity that people can actually get away with this kind of stuff with a straight face. They are so consumed in their lusts and their sin-soaked lives that they have been utterly deceived by Satan. And unless they repent big time they are headed for a lost eternity.
We can do two things here: repent ourselves that the church has been allowed to sink this low, and pray for those conned souls who actually think they can get away with this.
I only have a second right now, but I promise you this is real. See THIS book.
I got into it with a guy who is into this scene and this book and this author is their justification. At least it was for this couple.
Greg Smith, US
New Dating Site For “Faithful” Couples – now there is a religious oxymoron if ever I saw one! But that aside, this is just pathetic, it seems as if the church is falling apart at the seams these days. I must also admit that when I see this sort of thing, I get a real feeling of helplessness and anxiousness.
Steve Davis
I think Hebrews 12 has something wonderful to say about it all; God, us as His, what He expects from us and empowers us to do, and more and more.
William Hooke
Steve Davis; don’t feel helpless or anxious, just pray for them and us all. Correct as the Lord guides you to.
Paul was empowered by God to go around to various churches to tell them to stop doing this kind of thing, and most of the ‘sin lists’ that Bill has cited are not from the 4 Gospel accounts. This is “church in action” or perhaps “church inaction” 😛 from the very beginning of the Church Age.
This stuff is part and parcel of humanity leaving Satan’s Lordship and coming under Jesus’s Lordship. It IS unGodly, but God is.
William Hooke
*It IS unGodly, but God is able to fix us, should we submit to Him and His loving AND holy ways with endurance.
William Hooke
Why is this news neither shocking nor surprising?
Ross McPhee
????? Pleeeeaase ????? Somebody tell me I read that wrong! I too, Steve Davis, feel helpless and anxious, but, empowered at the same time. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. What a “terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God”. I thought I’d heard it all, but, I was wrong. Come Lord Jesus. xxx
Damian Utano
“who still want to have an active love life”
As if to say that monogamous Christians don’t have an active love life? I think its the biggest lie the enemy tries to tell us is to convince us that a faithful, monogamous marriage is boring and that only a multitude of partners make it satisfying. Wrong- both my wife and I (married 32 years) have a fantastic physical relationship. No need for swinging, porn, adult “toys” etc.etc.
We start with the premise that the physical act of love was created by God and being part of His creating humankind, it was no just good, but very good. As sex and its enjoyment is mostly psychological, to know that or actions are part of fulfilling not only the procreative command but also the “two becoming one flesh”, we know that God will make it very good- and He does.
And the “he who casts the first stone” quoted, always out of context- the woman was caught in adultery (swinging?) and Jesus said- “I do not condemn you either, go forth an SIN no more”. He still called adultery a sin and told the woman to stop.
Philip Murray Impey
Anyone who thinks that this is Christian is crazier than a bedbug. Any Christian who stumbles into this sin needs to seek help ASAP. Can a Christian fall into this sin? Sure. A Christian can fall into any sin. But to embrace it as a lifestyle? Absolutely NOT.
Furthermore, if you know anyone who claims Christ and walks in this manner, you are to warn them AND have no contact with them other than what may be necessary.
Ed Sumner
Somewhat off-topic but some time ago, I read about the case of a man who fathered at least 21 children with at least 11 women: http://www.examiner.com/article/tennessee-man-tells-child-support-court-he-has-21-children
In such a case, what would repentance mean? (By the way, it’s not known if the guy is a Christian or not). He should stop but the damage/consequences are already done and can’t be undone and marriage/monogamy probably can’t solve the problem. Where to proceed?
Mark Wong
I’m in shock Bill! I thought you must be joking…too sad.
Vickie Janson
Umm… I’m speechless. “Christians” actively seeking adultery?? I don’t know whether to laugh or shake my head in sheer disgust. Probably both. I think I will add these folk to my prayer list. For salvation and repentance: may God grant them both.
Mick Koster
Thanks guys. Of course it is always possible that it is all just a hoax. So who will be the first one to sign up, to see if it is the real deal?!
Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch
I thought of joining just to see if it was real, but then I thought, what if my wife finds out?
So I thought, I’ll ask her to join up too.
Woops … that’s probably an even worse idea and I’d get into even more trouble.
I think I’ll let someone else join up for investigative purposes to “enlighten” us all.
Graeme Cumming
This is just unbelievable. These people have no idea about Christian marriage and how our bodies are not for sexual immorality (1 Corinthians 6:12-20). Such a website is very dangerous and destructive. May we guard ourselves against these worldly things.
Sid Avery
They don’t believe it’s immorality. They believe that traditional views of monogamous marriage and sex have been forced upon the text by uptight medieval Catholics and were never intended by God. They restrict His designs for sex and marriage where He has not. They are dead serious and they practice what they preach. Like I said in the first comment. I know a guy online who he and his wife are waaaaay into this.
Again, in their case THIS author is their pied piper of perversity. Before too much sneering goes on, that book sounds VERY convincing to those untutored in proper exegesis and exposition or unmotivated by a heart raised in Christ.
Greg Smith, US
Hmm remember the children of God? now called the family. The ability of people to Justify behaviour has no limits.
Rusty Boden
Hmm remember the children of God? now called the family. The ability of people to Justify behaviour has no limits.
Rusty Boden
That was David Berg’s outfit in the 70’s. I don’t know if they’re still around. This isn’t the same though. It’s far more dangerous because it’s made to sound so plausible and many of it’s adherents are otherwise responsible serious professional people. Unlike the COG who were largely marginalized hippie types.
The guy I know is a successful business owner.
Greg Smith, US
Pure evil, and that is an understatement.
AntiChristSwingers.com is a better name.
Hopefully naive Christians won’t be taken in by this vile site.
Paul Copeland
Yes, I recall the CoG. Moe Berg’s pack-o-wackos. We got a new phrase in the American lexicon from that lot: “Cmon Ma, burn your bra.”
That anyone would even remotely consider such people Christians is totally beyond me and I frankly find it insulting.
Ed Sumner
People can put a label on their “religion” but real Christianity is a life walking the narrow road of holiness. It is an intimate relationship with the LORD God Almighty through the Cross. This cheap grace and fake Christianity is just giving these people a false sense of security. Jesus Christ requires obedience to His commandments. Period. We must take up our cross and follow Him or we are not worthy of Him. It seems their “foolish minds are darkened and are reprobate.”
Ok. I turned away from Jesus & God (Yahweh) for 40 years. I married a man who is a swinger and who brought me into this. However we have partners that are also good friends, and sex is not always part of the equation. So, about six months away I started attending a church that my favorite Aunt & Cousins go to. One Sunday about 3 weeks ago, the Holy Sprit touched me! I cried and wailed (silently) to God to forgive me and take me back. I have been reading and studying the Bible again. So, my husband knows of my slow transformation….but now we are supposed to meet up with these “friends” and there will be sex. I don’t know what to do! Also, what about King Solomon who had many, many wives and concubines (whores)?? There are other “holy” men who had sex with other women. I don’t understand. Please explain this to me and what I should do. I appreciate your time!
Thanks for sharing your story Rebecca. First, you want NOTHING to do with these “friends”. They are not your friends and they will lead you to the pits of hell. Avoid them like the plague and pray for them.
The longer answer to your question is found in these two articles:
The shorter answer is this: polygamous and adulterous relationships are never approved of in Scripture. They may be described but they are never prescribed. As I said in one of those articles:
Because of the hardness of men’s hearts, less than ideal circumstances were sometimes allowed to proceed. But Scripture is also quite clear as it warns about such situations. Indeed, it directly warns against polygamy in places like Deuteronomy 17:17 where we find this said about future kings: “He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray.”
And this is just what happened to the likes of King Solomon. The OT makes it clear that there were very real consequences of his polygamy. This is shown time and time again, and the strong words applied to Solomon are true of all the others: “As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God” (1 Kings 11:4).
And again:
Or as Old Testament scholar Richard Davidson puts it in his magisterial Flame of Yahweh: Sexuality in the Old Testament, when we examine the patriarchal narratives where examples of plural marriages are found, “the narrator presents each account in such a way as to underscore a theology of disapproval. The record of these polygamous relationships bristles with discord, rivalry, heartache, and even rebellion, revealing the motivations and/or disastrous consequences that invariably accompanied such departures from God’s Edenic ideal.”
He goes on to state that of the 3000 men mentioned in the OT record, only 33 are involved in polygamy, and “invariably the divinely inspired narrators include their tacit condemnation of these practices. Contrary to other ANE legislation, Mosaic legislation condemns all polygamy, both for the people and (at least implicitly) for the king.”
While God at times may show some grace to the polygamist along the way, “the prohibitions in Lev. 18 – including polygamy – are presented as universal law, applicable to all humanity (transcultural) for all time (transtemporal), upholding the order of creation.”
And obviously the New Testament also enjoins monogamous relationships only. As Norman Geisler summarises, “Our Lord reaffirmed God’s original intention by citing this passage (Matt. 19:4) and noting that God created one ‘male and [one] female’ and joined them in marriage. The NT stresses that ‘Each man [should] have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband’ (1 Cor. 7:2). Likewise, Paul insisted that a church leader should be ‘the husband of one wife’ (1 Tim. 3:2, 12). Indeed, monogamous marriage is a prefiguration of the relation between Christ and His bride, the church (Eph. 5:31-32).”
I only have a second right now, but I promise you this is real. See THIS book.
I got into it with a guy who is into this scene and this book and this author is their justification. At least it was for this couple.
Greg Smith, US
New Dating Site For “Faithful” Couples – now there is a religious oxymoron if ever I saw one! But that aside, this is just pathetic, it seems as if the church is falling apart at the seams these days. I must also admit that when I see this sort of thing, I get a real feeling of helplessness and anxiousness.
Steve Davis
I think Hebrews 12 has something wonderful to say about it all; God, us as His, what He expects from us and empowers us to do, and more and more.
William Hooke
Steve Davis; don’t feel helpless or anxious, just pray for them and us all. Correct as the Lord guides you to.
Paul was empowered by God to go around to various churches to tell them to stop doing this kind of thing, and most of the ‘sin lists’ that Bill has cited are not from the 4 Gospel accounts. This is “church in action” or perhaps “church inaction” 😛 from the very beginning of the Church Age.
This stuff is part and parcel of humanity leaving Satan’s Lordship and coming under Jesus’s Lordship. It IS unGodly, but God is.
William Hooke
*It IS unGodly, but God is able to fix us, should we submit to Him and His loving AND holy ways with endurance.
William Hooke
Why is this news neither shocking nor surprising?
Ross McPhee
????? Pleeeeaase ????? Somebody tell me I read that wrong! I too, Steve Davis, feel helpless and anxious, but, empowered at the same time. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. What a “terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God”. I thought I’d heard it all, but, I was wrong. Come Lord Jesus. xxx
Damian Utano
“who still want to have an active love life”
As if to say that monogamous Christians don’t have an active love life? I think its the biggest lie the enemy tries to tell us is to convince us that a faithful, monogamous marriage is boring and that only a multitude of partners make it satisfying. Wrong- both my wife and I (married 32 years) have a fantastic physical relationship. No need for swinging, porn, adult “toys” etc.etc.
We start with the premise that the physical act of love was created by God and being part of His creating humankind, it was no just good, but very good. As sex and its enjoyment is mostly psychological, to know that or actions are part of fulfilling not only the procreative command but also the “two becoming one flesh”, we know that God will make it very good- and He does.
And the “he who casts the first stone” quoted, always out of context- the woman was caught in adultery (swinging?) and Jesus said- “I do not condemn you either, go forth an SIN no more”. He still called adultery a sin and told the woman to stop.
Philip Murray Impey
Anyone who thinks that this is Christian is crazier than a bedbug. Any Christian who stumbles into this sin needs to seek help ASAP. Can a Christian fall into this sin? Sure. A Christian can fall into any sin. But to embrace it as a lifestyle? Absolutely NOT.
Furthermore, if you know anyone who claims Christ and walks in this manner, you are to warn them AND have no contact with them other than what may be necessary.
Ed Sumner
Somewhat off-topic but some time ago, I read about the case of a man who fathered at least 21 children with at least 11 women:
http://www.examiner.com/article/tennessee-man-tells-child-support-court-he-has-21-children
In such a case, what would repentance mean? (By the way, it’s not known if the guy is a Christian or not). He should stop but the damage/consequences are already done and can’t be undone and marriage/monogamy probably can’t solve the problem. Where to proceed?
Mark Wong
I’m in shock Bill! I thought you must be joking…too sad.
Vickie Janson
Umm… I’m speechless. “Christians” actively seeking adultery?? I don’t know whether to laugh or shake my head in sheer disgust. Probably both. I think I will add these folk to my prayer list. For salvation and repentance: may God grant them both.
Mick Koster
Thanks guys. Of course it is always possible that it is all just a hoax. So who will be the first one to sign up, to see if it is the real deal?!
Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch
I thought of joining just to see if it was real, but then I thought, what if my wife finds out?
So I thought, I’ll ask her to join up too.
Woops … that’s probably an even worse idea and I’d get into even more trouble.
I think I’ll let someone else join up for investigative purposes to “enlighten” us all.
Graeme Cumming
This is just unbelievable. These people have no idea about Christian marriage and how our bodies are not for sexual immorality (1 Corinthians 6:12-20). Such a website is very dangerous and destructive. May we guard ourselves against these worldly things.
Sid Avery
They don’t believe it’s immorality. They believe that traditional views of monogamous marriage and sex have been forced upon the text by uptight medieval Catholics and were never intended by God. They restrict His designs for sex and marriage where He has not. They are dead serious and they practice what they preach. Like I said in the first comment. I know a guy online who he and his wife are waaaaay into this.
Again, in their case THIS author is their pied piper of perversity. Before too much sneering goes on, that book sounds VERY convincing to those untutored in proper exegesis and exposition or unmotivated by a heart raised in Christ.
Greg Smith, US
Hmm remember the children of God? now called the family. The ability of people to Justify behaviour has no limits.
Rusty Boden
Hmm remember the children of God? now called the family. The ability of people to Justify behaviour has no limits.
Rusty Boden
That was David Berg’s outfit in the 70’s. I don’t know if they’re still around. This isn’t the same though. It’s far more dangerous because it’s made to sound so plausible and many of it’s adherents are otherwise responsible serious professional people. Unlike the COG who were largely marginalized hippie types.
The guy I know is a successful business owner.
Greg Smith, US
Pure evil, and that is an understatement.
AntiChristSwingers.com is a better name.
Hopefully naive Christians won’t be taken in by this vile site.
Paul Copeland
Yes, I recall the CoG. Moe Berg’s pack-o-wackos. We got a new phrase in the American lexicon from that lot: “Cmon Ma, burn your bra.”
That anyone would even remotely consider such people Christians is totally beyond me and I frankly find it insulting.
Ed Sumner
People can put a label on their “religion” but real Christianity is a life walking the narrow road of holiness. It is an intimate relationship with the LORD God Almighty through the Cross. This cheap grace and fake Christianity is just giving these people a false sense of security. Jesus Christ requires obedience to His commandments. Period. We must take up our cross and follow Him or we are not worthy of Him. It seems their “foolish minds are darkened and are reprobate.”
Ok. I turned away from Jesus & God (Yahweh) for 40 years. I married a man who is a swinger and who brought me into this. However we have partners that are also good friends, and sex is not always part of the equation. So, about six months away I started attending a church that my favorite Aunt & Cousins go to. One Sunday about 3 weeks ago, the Holy Sprit touched me! I cried and wailed (silently) to God to forgive me and take me back. I have been reading and studying the Bible again. So, my husband knows of my slow transformation….but now we are supposed to meet up with these “friends” and there will be sex. I don’t know what to do! Also, what about King Solomon who had many, many wives and concubines (whores)?? There are other “holy” men who had sex with other women. I don’t understand. Please explain this to me and what I should do. I appreciate your time!
Thanks for sharing your story Rebecca. First, you want NOTHING to do with these “friends”. They are not your friends and they will lead you to the pits of hell. Avoid them like the plague and pray for them.
The longer answer to your question is found in these two articles:
billmuehlenberg.com/2011/12/19/polygamy-and-scripture/
billmuehlenberg.com/2015/04/09/polygamy-and-scripture-2/
The shorter answer is this: polygamous and adulterous relationships are never approved of in Scripture. They may be described but they are never prescribed. As I said in one of those articles:
And again: