Comments on: On Biblical Cooperation and Separation

By: Tom Wise

Tom Wise — Sun, 06 Dec 2009 06:09:05 +0000

If we don’t work with and mix with the people around us we don’t have much chance of impressing them with the Gospel. After all, Jesus accepted invitatons to mix with publicans and sinners, but He did not water the message in order to suit them. I rather gain the impression that He impressed them with who He was. We have nohing to be afraid of.
Tom Wise

By: david Skinner

david Skinner — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:20:21 +0000

God bless you Kev.

Let us be reminded of the case of Mr Edwards Atkinson:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article716301.ece
http://www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/39SICK39-PROTEST-OVER-ABORTION.5045196.jp
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjNmZmYwMmE1MWYzYTA5NjIzMGM4ZTZmMmMxMGM3NzA=#more

A number of us were in court the day he was led off on his walking sticks to prison. We were Baptists, Anglicans and Roman Catholics. Since then I have joined with Catholics on another issue of gross injustice. But protesting with words and civil disobedience is one thing but what happens when the secular authorities actually come and tear our children away from us, as is about to happen with Isabella being torn from her mother Iisa Miller and given into the keeping of a lesbian and her partner:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=81022155363
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/oct/08102707.html
http://hunterforjustice.typepad.com/hunter_of_justice/2009/11/vermont-judge-orders-transfer-of-custody-to-nonbio-mom-of-isabella-millerjenkins.html

Does there not also come a point where action is also demanded? The Marxist tyrannies of Eastern Europe were in the final analysis brought down by the solidarity of all peoples – led by Christians, for only they have the moral courage and spiritual power to do this.

David Skinner, UK

By: Kev

Kev — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 06:04:46 +0000

So, let’s say that a group of evalgelicals decide to hold a protest rally (on any of these issues previously mentioned) outside parliament. By sheer coincident an RC group has planned a similar rally at the same place for the same issue. Then, by remarkable coincidence a Muslim group, and then a secular group roll up, each equally surprised by the others’ presence. What would you do?
a. Pack up and go home.
b. Remain, but with clearly established demarcation lines.
c. Start a fight and try to tell the others that this is your rally and that they should go away.
d. Remain there and protest, thankful that there are many other community members who want want what you (and God) want.

To paraphrase Joshua, “As for me and my household, we will choose to stay, thankful for the extra supporters sent by God”.

I am a staunch evangelical Christian.

Kev Downes

By: John Snowden

John Snowden — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:40:32 +0000

Thank you David Skinner. I have heard of the Frankfurt School but I will have to read up on it.

Is membership in student unions mandatory for uni students in your country?

John Snowden

By: Bill Muehlenberg

Bill Muehlenberg — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:58:29 +0000

Thanks again guys

As usual, the biblical balance is a tricky thing to achieve in issues like this. And Christians will have different emphases on all this. The Bible certainly warns about unholy alliances, especially in the OT. Israel was not to make defence pacts with pagan nations, but to rely on Yahweh for protection. But again, that seems to me to be a far cry from signing an important document like the MD.

David is right to cite Luke 9 in this regard, and the Niemoller quote is also relevant here: “In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.”

Thus Lisa is sadly quite right. Some Christian purists, if they had their way, would still be languishing in Nazi concentration camps today, so concerned with their version of biblical separatism. The truth is, in a fallen world, we intermingle with non-believers every day on all sorts of levels, and often it cannot be helped that we cooperate with them in various ways. Sometimes it is foolhardy not to do so.

Working together on common causes has its place. Indeed, Christians were fighting alongside non-Christians, and those from different religions, during WWII. And they were even fighting against other Christians on the other side at times. Things can get complex in the real world.

But again, we all must decide how biblical separatism and purity works out in daily life. Purity of doctrine and behaviour is certainly important, but so too is resisting evil in the world. But if this thread gets us to think and pray more about these complex issues, then it may have done some good.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

By: Lisa Nolland

Lisa Nolland — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:30:54 +0000

Would we have only joined with fellow Christians to stop the halt of the Nazi war machine? Of course not! God works in and through all sorts, including non-Christian folk who have rightly understood his heart for the unborn etc.
I would hope that the MD would encourage these not-yet-Christian social and moral conservatives who may be rejecting Christianity because of its perceived failure to address crucially important issues. They are not the only ones who struggle with the ‘party line’ of many of the churches today..
I believe Aslan is on the move!
Lisa Nolland, UK

By: david Skinner

david Skinner — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:26:07 +0000

What did Jesus think of those fellow travellers who were not Christians or at least part of our denomination, with regard to accepting their the help and support?

Luke 9: 46-50 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all—he is the greatest.” “Master,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

Luke 10:30-37 Jesus answered, “A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, ‘Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.’ Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?” He said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

David Skinner, UK

By: Francis Kesina

Francis Kesina — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:35:08 +0000

As a matter of principle I’ve always had an aversion to glorifying the death of Thomas More or the persecution of Catholics in the Elizabethan era. Celebrating such blood-letting on the part of fellow Christians only serves to further divide those who should be ashamed of the events that have taken place. Similarly Foxe’s Book of Martyrs and the almost fantastical myths that have grown around the publication of the Bible (which conveniently ignore the invention of the printing press) only further reinforce these false divisions. I know only too well (as a descendent of Croat immigrants) how the manipulation of history and a lack of forgiveness can destroy the soul of a people. Surely Christians of this day and age should be able to see through such vainglory and work towards common goals for the salvation of our civilisation in spite of our theological differences. As usual Bill, you have been a beacon of common sense and all you have said I find myself in complete agreement. We would do well to heed your advice.

Francis Kesina

By: david Skinner

david Skinner — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:41:26 +0000

John Snowden, I attended the pre-launch of the 2010 Lesbian Gay, Bisexual and Trans sexual History Month, last Thursday 19th November at the British Museum. I advise everyone to google this little lot. It was truly terrifying for it made it clear as day that Cultural Marxism and the Frankfurt School are not fictional but a present reality. Ben Bradshaw the Secretary of State for Culture in the UK and Sir Trevor Phillips of the Equality and Human Rights Commission are but a few of the drivers of this wicked agenda. They and Stonewall have a programme, schedule, objectives, the financial backing of government, banks, trade unions, studen unions, departments of education human rights organisations that are looking for our children. I was there John, a solitary Christian, witness to this Nuremberg type rally.

David Skinner, UK

By: Bill Muehlenberg

Bill Muehlenberg — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:02:08 +0000

Thanks guys

Before this thread starts going off in too many different directions, let me just offer a quick summary reply, as things now might be getting a bit repetitious, as well as tangential!

As to the MD (which was the catalyst for this piece to begin with), it is merely a document, which people are free to sign or not sign, declaring some quite vital themes, namely the biblical institutions of marriage and family, the sanctity of life, and religious freedom.

It is not a binding treaty. One does not need to shed blood to make a covenant agreement with it. It does not require one to sell one’s soul. It is not a theological document. It has no penalties for pulling out. One can take it or leave it. It is a mere piece of paper expressing concerns about some very important issues.

To be honest, I simply fail to see how signing it in any way signals a compromise of the gospel, an unholy alliance, an unequal yoking, a betrayal of the faith, a mark of ungodly compromise, a work of apostasy, or a diminution of the proclamation of the work of Christ.

But as I keep saying, we may just need to agree to disagree here. So thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch