The end can never justify the means.

For example, you cannot lie to some one even if you think that by doing so, it will lead them to the Gospel.

Roger Newton

Rather than discussing the ethics of whether or not the Salvo’s should have run a booth at the Sexpo, lets deal honestly here – the Salvo’s don’t preach the Gospel plain and simple, period, full stop. The fire of old William Booth for the lost, and the naming of the organization ‘Salvation Army’ doesn’t do them much credit today with their man-centered social gospel. The Salvo’s have entered into the same affair as most other large denominations – they’ve left the old message of the Cross, and they’ve replaced it with ‘moralism’.

So I’d say right up that if the Salvo’s set up a booth at this event – the chances of them mentioning anything real about the heart of the cross (propitiation) or the need for people to repent from sin and trust in Christ is very slim. The one thing satan hates is the Gospel, he wouldn’t mind if we run ‘Jesus’ booths until the Lord returns – he wants us to keep busy handing out all the ‘Christian’ literature in the world, and he has no problem with morality issues like he has a problem with the Gospel. And that’s where Booth had it right on the money – the Gospel is issue, and we are in a ‘Salvation Army’ for souls who are going to hell, and need Christ’s cross.

Secondly, the issue is not merely the Gospel – but why would people get so excited over running a booth? I worked on a booth last year for the Royal Adelaide show. The booth cost serious amounts of money, which was generously donated by church groups, but the stand was full of nonsense tracts & all the Christian volunteers did was hand out stickers with animals on them – not the Gospel! ‘Woe is unto me, if I preach not the Gospel’ (1 Cor 9:16). Paul was ‘separated unto the Gospel’ (Rom 1:1), it is our debt (Rom 1:14), we need to be ready to preach it (Rom 1:15) and ought to be un-ashamed in this politically correct, apostate age (Rom 1:16). The great shame of the church is that we pride ourselves in our programs and events, that cost the Church all it’s money – and yet for three full years, week in and week out, I’ve declared the Gospel plainly and simply, handed out thousands of tracts and it cost me hardly a cent. The Church must discover the street meetings again – it must go door to door, it must go back to the open air sermons – or our nation is sunk. Some little booth doesn’t do much, and any booth that really hit the nail on the head would be censored by authorities immediately. That’s the just the way it is. I’ve already been arrested thrice for the Gospel on Adelaide’s streets, so have my friends – I say again, let us return to the old message, and we shall see the old power!

Was it right to hold a booth in the Sexpo? I’m inclined to say no. Primarily because it’s a sissy form of evangelism that costs too much and accomplishes little (despite it’s press), but secondarily, I say no to it, because the amount of strip clubs & brothels that need picketing and tracting are many. I’ve stood outside the Crazy Horse strib club in Hindley St Adelaide and handed tracts to stacks of men going in and out. Didn’t cost me a cent. Plus, it’s very confronting. And you’d be AMAZED to see how many professing ‘Christians’ go in there!!! Ours is the age of desperate need for the Gospel – lets dump our programs & costly evangelism – and do it book of Acts style!

Servant in the Gospel,
Forbes Morrison

I was part of a small group of prayer warriors who prayed against Sexpo today, and prayed for the Salvos there. While I still question the wisdom of the Salvo presence there, especially in terms of giving the smut industry far more credibility, I will keep praying.

As to those who were there “who felt overwhelmed by the saturation of sex,” one has to ask the obvious question: what the heck were they doing there in the first place? Just what did they expect?

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

We became a refugee for those who felt overwhelmed by the saturation of sex. We were a safe place for people to talk and learn more about the horror of Human Tafficking.

All of our encounters were positive, God is truley there with us as we shared some great prayer time and conversations with people.

No one at the show thinks that we are there to give our support to the industry, and we certainty did not waste any of our precious funds on the stall.

We are there to love people and be a shining light in a dark place.

I thank everyone for their support and prayers while we fight.

Perri Winter

Ewan McDonald.

But respectfully, you continue to somewhat confuse issues here. No one is saying we should not help porn stars get out of the industry. The question here is whether the Salvoes are being wise – and biblical – in their particular approach at Sexpo. And again, recall what the Captain keeps repeating – ‘we are not going to condemn, judge, evangelise, preach, etc.’ If that is true, it would seem there would not be much opportunity or motivation for anyone in the sex industry to want to change.

But we are starting to cover old ground here. You admitted to not reading all the comments, so much of my response has already been given elsewhere on this thread, including my contention that it is possible that on the whole, more harm may come out of this than good. (See my reply to Elle for example.)

As to’credibility,’ if you read all my remarks here you will pick up what I mean. The porn industry craves acceptability and wants to be seen as just any other normal business. People have an adverse reaction to, and will stay away from, that which is considered to be quite fringe, quite wrong, and quite unacceptable. But the porn industry wants to convince the rest of society that it is none of these things. Having a Salvo stand there may simply add to this PR job on the part of the porn industry.

It may help make porn to be seen as more acceptable, normal and mainstream, and it therefore may drag many more people into its deadly grasp. Those are the sorts of overall negative consequences which I am worried about, and which some defenders of the Salvo stall seem to be quite cavalier or uninterested about.

And perhaps one other quick reply. If someone from DrugArm is helping an individual get off of drugs, say in his own home, again, there is nothing analogous to the Salvos being at Sexpo. What would be analogous would be the Salvos helping a sex worker get out of that lifestyle, perhaps at their own home. I am not sure of DrugArm workers going into anything analogous to Sexpo.

But you are quite right, the whole discussion has certainly been interesting, to say the least! And if it helps us all to think things through more carefully and biblically then it may be a worthwhile discussion.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

This is an interesting discussion.

Do you not think we should err on the side of helping porn stars exit the porn industry (which is the goal for example, of xxx church) or connecting with people who are going to sexpo to “improve their marriage” and instead pointing them in a different direction? If the salvos achieve this, do we really care what others might think of it, how much credibility they might think they have?

There are often unintended consequences for doing good things. Complaints about sexist advertising serve to increase exposure for those advertisements and therefore increase profits for that company. I personally won’t let that silence me on this particular issue.

I believe it is completely analogous my example of drugarm. Drugarm is a christian org who make themselves available to anyone impacted by drugs, including drug users. We phoned them a while back about a family member who was using drugs. I didn’t find out they were a christian org until after this phone call as they didn’t evangelise, they were available for info and counselling, just like the salvos plan to be. I don’t believe that this availability on the phone, or on the streets gives credibility to drug users or dealers.

Just to clarify, so I understand, what do you mean by credibility? are you concerned that the managers and participants of sexpo will feel good about themselves and their position? Or do you think the general public will feel as though porn is an acceptable thing now?

I just can’t see it happening. The salvos don’t go to retail trade fairs because nobody needs help out of retail. They don’t go to home improvement trade shows because people don’t need help for that. To me, the fact that the salvos are there tells us that people need help and reminds us that something is wrong with Sexpo.

Re: paedophilia – I think Sexpo already does promote this, but that is another debate. The Salvos aren’t there to promote porn, but to promote an alternative. The christians who got alongside Dennis Fergusson as both a friend and protector for him – and to keep an eye on him – were not promoting child abuse, though the christians were often accused of being soft on child abuse because of this.

Bill, I would really like your thoughts on xxxchurch.

www.xxxchurch.com I think it would also be worthwhile for you to make contact with Craig Gross to discuss these things, even if you don’t end up agreeing with what they do, it would help you in forming your opinion. I’m pretty sure this is what the salvos are basing their ministry on.

Kelly Williams

While I may not be able to prove that by being there, the Salvos will give credibility to the sleaze industry; neither can you prove that they will not. Thus if we are simply not certain here, I would much rather err on the side of caution. It is still possible that net harm may occur here, as I argue in some of my comments.

And I am not sure how the existence and ministry of a group like DrugArm is in any way analogous to the Salvos being in Sexpo.

You say, “People involved in the sex industry *really* need help”. Absolutely. No one is disputing that. But the issue here is, what is the best way to help them? Is this the best and wisest way to help them?

One can equally say that ‘People involved in paedophilia or child abuse *really* need help’. Does that mean we should have a booth in a place which is dedicated and devoted to the promotion of paedophilia or child abuse? I am not so sure.

And no, I have not heard Craig Gross. I am sure that he may well be sincere. But of course it is always possible that one can be sincerely wrong.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

A few of your comments continue to have me worried:
“The porn is not the problem as much as…”
“It is totally appropriate that people who don’t have weakness in this area go in.”

Both seem to reveal a rather glaring naivety about the massively destructive, deceptive and addictive nature of porn. Marriage counsellors inform me that 85 per cent of divorces can be traced back to the use of porn. Porn is poison, and it corrupts everything it touches.

And who says it is totally appropriate to go into these areas? Who do you know that is not immune from the effect of porn, or has no weakness in that area, certainly among men? I sense a bit of a glib and cavalier attitude to this overwhelmingly destructive and corrosive area. It has no redeeming features, and to think we can trifle with it is to play with fire.

In an only slightly different situation, we are told to ‘flee fornication’ (1 Cor. 6:18). It is so volatile and dangerous, we are not to hang around it, trifle with it, or pretend we are somehow not going to be affected by it. We are to simply flee – wise and godly advice.

Joseph was a deeply godly man, who you might say didn’t “have weakness in this area”. But when he was faced with sexual temptation, he did not stay around to be a witness, to win Potiphar’s wife, or to be salt and light. He did one thing and one thing only – he fled. If godly and saintly Joseph had to do this, just who do you think does not have to do this?

Again, a passage I quoted way back in the article: “It is shameful to even speak of those things which are done in darkness”. You seem to not only want to speak about it, but to dive right into it all as if it has no power and danger whatsoever. Perhaps you are more of a supersaint than I am, but I would prefer to follow the biblical injunctions here, and simply flee.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch