Comments on: The Fight for Religious Freedom http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:57:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Mark Godfree http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-148202 Mark Godfree Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:50:32 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-148202 Danny, Thanks for your links re Communitarianism & the 'third wave' I have found it somewhat disturbing over the last 2 decades to see many parts of the Church have shifted their identity or way of describing themselves from the 'family' of God to the 'Community' of God. My concern being that (although unintentional) it really is a reflection of the current collectivist preference of sociology & politics and changes the way we see the Church and exactly what it is.... Subtle - yes - but definitely a paradigm shift. Mark Godfree Danny,
Thanks for your links re Communitarianism & the ‘third wave’
I have found it somewhat disturbing over the last 2 decades to see many parts of the Church have shifted their identity or way of describing themselves from the ‘family’ of God to the ‘Community’ of God. My concern being that (although unintentional) it really is a reflection of the current collectivist preference of sociology & politics and changes the way we see the Church and exactly what it is…. Subtle – yes – but definitely a paradigm shift.
Mark Godfree

]]> By: Ewan http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-148156 Ewan Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:06:46 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-148156 I've heard some conservative Christian commentators describe "political correctness" as "cultural Marxism". See <a href="http://www.worldviewtimes.com/article.php/articleid-4104/Brannon-Howse/Brannon-Howse" rel="nofollow">here</a> for example. Ewan McDonald. I’ve heard some conservative Christian commentators describe “political correctness” as “cultural Marxism”. See here for example.

Ewan McDonald.

]]> By: Danny Polglase http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-148140 Danny Polglase Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:09:32 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-148140 If I understand David Skinner's main thrust concerning 'cultural Marxism', then I agree with him that the Marxist manifesto is not dead, but simply travelling 'under the radar'. I have also heard this reinvented Marxism referred to as 'Communitarianism', and have read some very good articles on the subject. http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communitarian/third_way.htm http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/Reinvent1.htm http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/Aldous.htm http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/solidarity-1.html Danny Polglase If I understand David Skinner’s main thrust concerning ‘cultural Marxism’, then I agree with him that the Marxist manifesto is not dead, but simply travelling ‘under the radar’. I have also heard this reinvented Marxism referred to as ‘Communitarianism’, and have read some very good articles on the subject.

www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communitarian/third_way.htm
www.crossroad.to/articles2/Reinvent1.htm
www.crossroad.to/articles2/Aldous.htm
www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/solidarity-1.html

Danny Polglase

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-147978 Bill Muehlenberg Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:39:21 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-147978 Thanks John Sure, Christians change things all the time, including Scripture, by not believing in what the Bible says, etc. The fact that there are pro-abortion or pro-homosexual Christians does not mean that God changes however. As to miracles and change, you perhaps confuse several issues. God’s character and nature is unchanging, and therefore moral obligations - which are grounded in his person - do not change either. As to the so-called laws of nature, these of course are simply descriptions of recurring events. Natural laws are descriptive, not prescriptive. That is, as in the law of gravity, they tell us what should occur, under ideal conditions, without natural or supernatural interference. But they do not tell us that something outside of nature can or cannot intervene with such laws. So it would be incorrect to say, for example, that a miracle is a violation of the laws of nature. The law of gravity still works, but one can intervene in its outworking by putting out a hand to catch a falling apple. The law simply predicts what will happen, provided there is no change to the conditions under which these things take place. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks John

Sure, Christians change things all the time, including Scripture, by not believing in what the Bible says, etc. The fact that there are pro-abortion or pro-homosexual Christians does not mean that God changes however.

As to miracles and change, you perhaps confuse several issues. God’s character and nature is unchanging, and therefore moral obligations – which are grounded in his person – do not change either. As to the so-called laws of nature, these of course are simply descriptions of recurring events.

Natural laws are descriptive, not prescriptive. That is, as in the law of gravity, they tell us what should occur, under ideal conditions, without natural or supernatural interference. But they do not tell us that something outside of nature can or cannot intervene with such laws.

So it would be incorrect to say, for example, that a miracle is a violation of the laws of nature. The law of gravity still works, but one can intervene in its outworking by putting out a hand to catch a falling apple. The law simply predicts what will happen, provided there is no change to the conditions under which these things take place.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: John Snowden http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-147969 John Snowden Tue, 21 Jul 2009 05:35:25 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-147969 David Skinner: "Christian morality does not change, neither do God’s laws." Some Christians believe in abortion, some do not. Somebody is changing something. As for God's laws, the conventional concept of miracle implies that some can be changed, if only by the the Author, and on a temporary basis to make a point. John Snowden David Skinner: “Christian morality does not change, neither do God’s laws.”

Some Christians believe in abortion, some do not. Somebody is changing something. As for God’s laws, the conventional concept of miracle implies that some can be changed, if only by the the Author, and on a temporary basis to make a point.

John Snowden

]]> By: Mark Godfree http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-147937 Mark Godfree Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:34:23 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-147937 Two points at a very basic level. 1 This is going to be a problem for VIC Labor at the 2010 state election as many of the seats held in Melbourne's Eastern 'Bible Belt' are quite marginal. (ie Forest Hill, held by Kirstie Marshall by only 550 votes,) With I suggest more than 550 Nominal Catholic and evangelical Labor voting Christians who I would suggest will change (hopefully) their vote on this issue not to mention our full term abortion laws. 2. Why would I continue too spend $8000 a year sending my 2 children to an independent Christian school (and saving the state Government heaps) if it is not going to be any different to the State schools in my area by way of who MUST be allowed to teach there. Again a no brainer, but I don't think the ALP apparatchiks are smart enought to do the maths on this one! Mark Godfree Two points at a very basic level.

1 This is going to be a problem for VIC Labor at the 2010 state election as many of the seats held in Melbourne’s Eastern ‘Bible Belt’ are quite marginal. (ie Forest Hill, held by Kirstie Marshall by only 550 votes,) With I suggest more than 550 Nominal Catholic and evangelical Labor voting Christians who I would suggest will change (hopefully) their vote on this issue not to mention our full term abortion laws.

2. Why would I continue too spend $8000 a year sending my 2 children to an independent Christian school (and saving the state Government heaps) if it is not going to be any different to the State schools in my area by way of who MUST be allowed to teach there. Again a no brainer, but I don’t think the ALP apparatchiks are smart enought to do the maths on this one!

Mark Godfree

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-147918 david skinner Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:12:15 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-147918 John Snowden, I certainly do not profess to be an expert in Marxism or history, but I certainly believe in the narrative of the Church. After all isn’t the Bible largely history? Didn’t Jesus Christ have to explain to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus the way history was his story? Likewise, the New Testament makes no sense unless one understands the Old Testament. Where we are today hasn’t just happened; there are documented events and characters who have all played their part in bringing us to where we are today. As a map is to a mariner so the Bible is to us. It tells us where we have come from, where we are and where we are headed. As for the possibility that political correctness arose from Christianity, this cannot be. Political correctness is the rule of whatever is the average consensus at any particular moment; what might be virtuous in the morning might become criminal in the afternoon and vice-versa. Christian morality does not change, neither do God’s laws. Forgive me if I have misunderstood you? David Skinner, UK John Snowden, I certainly do not profess to be an expert in Marxism or history, but I certainly believe in the narrative of the Church. After all isn’t the Bible largely history? Didn’t Jesus Christ have to explain to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus the way history was his story? Likewise, the New Testament makes no sense unless one understands the Old Testament. Where we are today hasn’t just happened; there are documented events and characters who have all played their part in bringing us to where we are today. As a map is to a mariner so the Bible is to us. It tells us where we have come from, where we are and where we are headed.

As for the possibility that political correctness arose from Christianity, this cannot be. Political correctness is the rule of whatever is the average consensus at any particular moment; what might be virtuous in the morning might become criminal in the afternoon and vice-versa. Christian morality does not change, neither do God’s laws.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you?

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: Donna http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-147894 Donna Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:34:43 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-147894 John Snowden, I think you answered your own question "We can see that the Nazi minority is crooked". Fascism is the unification of the rights of the individual balanced against the interests of society as a whole. Multiculturalism blends society as one and Political Correctness is the justification tool used. Holocaust survivors would definately tell us they lived in a world where good was evil and evil was good. Sounds like Hitler's "New Social Consciounsness" restyled with trendy words. 2 Tim 4:3: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears." Donna Opie John Snowden, I think you answered your own question “We can see that the Nazi minority is crooked”. Fascism is the unification of the rights of the individual balanced against the interests of society as a whole. Multiculturalism blends society as one and Political Correctness is the justification tool used. Holocaust survivors would definately tell us they lived in a world where good was evil and evil was good. Sounds like Hitler’s “New Social Consciounsness” restyled with trendy words.

2 Tim 4:3: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.”

Donna Opie

]]> By: John Snowden http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-147876 John Snowden Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:17:08 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-147876 David Skinner on "Cultural Marxism". I can't find anything about "Cultural Marxism" in my "A Dictionary of Marxist Thought" , a standard reference, but maybe I missed it. The book deals with Western Marxism. What is "Marxist" about "Cultural Marxism" as a branch of Western Marxism? You seem to think that Multiculturalism and Political Correctness are the same. The first is a certain political theory about how a society should be. The second is a form of coercive behaviour designed to instil conformity and silence some forms of dissent. The fact that it comes from the political Left does not in itself make it Marxist for the obvious historical reason that not everything on the Left is Marxist. "William S. Lind, writing in October 25, 2005, said: “In order to understand what something is, you have to know its history". He is partly wrong. I understand Australian parliamentary democracy without having to trace its roots back through English history. Similarly good Christian souls understand their religion without understanding the history of their religion. All they need is their Scripture and clergy (except Spong!). On the other hand, it might be possible to understand Political Correctness better by searching European social history for previous forms of the behaviour over the centuries, as if it was a sociological chamaeleon. Have you considered the possibility that it first arose in Christianity? Just a thought. After all, there is an argument that socialism arose from Christianity, and socialism is Left as is Political Correctness in its current form. If understanding what something is requires knowing its history, then you might get more than you bargained for. John Snowden David Skinner on “Cultural Marxism”. I can’t find anything about “Cultural Marxism” in my “A Dictionary of Marxist Thought” , a standard reference, but maybe I missed it. The book deals with Western Marxism. What is “Marxist” about “Cultural Marxism” as a branch of Western Marxism?

You seem to think that Multiculturalism and Political Correctness are the same. The first is a certain political theory about how a society should be. The second is a form of coercive behaviour designed to instil conformity and silence some forms of dissent. The fact that it comes from the political Left does not in itself make it Marxist for the obvious historical reason that not everything on the Left is Marxist.

“William S. Lind, writing in October 25, 2005, said: “In order to understand what something is, you have to know its history”. He is partly wrong. I understand Australian parliamentary democracy without having to trace its roots back through English history. Similarly good Christian souls understand their religion without understanding the history of their religion. All they need is their Scripture and clergy (except Spong!). On the other hand, it might be possible to understand Political Correctness better by searching European social history for previous forms of the behaviour over the centuries, as if it was a sociological chamaeleon. Have you considered the possibility that it first arose in Christianity? Just a thought. After all, there is an argument that socialism arose from Christianity, and socialism is Left as is Political Correctness in its current form. If understanding what something is requires knowing its history, then you might get more than you bargained for.

John Snowden

]]> By: Louise Le Mottee http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/17/the-fight-for-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-147872 Louise Le Mottee Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:46:03 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1764#comment-147872 <i>Instead, we should call the government to task and make known that we, the people, have limits on how much they can interfere with, control, manipulate and restrict our lives.</i> Yes, we can and should call them on it. But at the same time, it is not defeatest to know exactly who and what we're up against. They are not primarily interested in reason or in following even their own avowed "values" such as tolerance. They (the hardcore followers of the Spirit of the Age) wish to eradicate Christ and His Church and if they have to be intolerant to do it, then so be it. Louise Le Mottee Instead, we should call the government to task and make known that we, the people, have limits on how much they can interfere with, control, manipulate and restrict our lives.

Yes, we can and should call them on it. But at the same time, it is not defeatest to know exactly who and what we’re up against. They are not primarily interested in reason or in following even their own avowed “values” such as tolerance. They (the hardcore followers of the Spirit of the Age) wish to eradicate Christ and His Church and if they have to be intolerant to do it, then so be it.

Louise Le Mottee

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