Comments on: By the Rivers of Babylon http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:47:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Peter Rice http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-148220 Peter Rice Thu, 23 Jul 2009 05:51:37 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-148220 I suppose it is one small thing but it could get some people thinking. I sit on a number of committees and councils and sometimes opportunities arise when I can declare myself as a (practicing) Christian. I find it easier and easier to do this and as yet have not been told it is unacceptable. Perhaps if all our brothers and sisters did likewise others would (at least) know 'a Christian'? Peter Rice I suppose it is one small thing but it could get some people thinking. I sit on a number of committees and councils and sometimes opportunities arise when I can declare myself as a (practicing) Christian. I find it easier and easier to do this and as yet have not been told it is unacceptable. Perhaps if all our brothers and sisters did likewise others would (at least) know ‘a Christian’?
Peter Rice

]]> By: wayne http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-146364 wayne Thu, 09 Jul 2009 01:33:22 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-146364 I think the phrase "Many Christians have the idea that the world is God’s Vietnam and we are just waiting for the helicopters." best sums up the evangelical churches to a great degree. We have been committing the sin of waiting for the Lord to return instead of doing His Work and when He returns be found doing our duty. I believe Hal Lindsey, La Haye, and dispensationalism in general, have lulled us into not doing anything to challenge the prevailing culture. Corrie ten Boom noted that it was the dispensationalist teaching in Chinese Christianity that left that Church unprepared for the Communist onslaught. Yet look at it now - an underground church that is thriving, and the number of Christians in China and Africa is apparently more than the USA, Europe and Australasia combined. I note the amillenial/postmillenial aspect to Mike Bull's comments about the Gospel being victorious in history, and whilst this may cause debate, yet it is a prophetic perspective that is in line with the Gospel - optimistic and placing faith in the God Who is here and He is Never Silent (to quote Schaeffer). Wayne Pelling I think the phrase “Many Christians have the idea that the world is God’s Vietnam and we are just waiting for the helicopters.” best sums up the evangelical churches to a great degree. We have been committing the sin of waiting for the Lord to return instead of doing His Work and when He returns be found doing our duty. I believe Hal Lindsey, La Haye, and dispensationalism in general, have lulled us into not doing anything to challenge the prevailing culture. Corrie ten Boom noted that it was the dispensationalist teaching in Chinese Christianity that left that Church unprepared for the Communist onslaught. Yet look at it now – an underground church that is thriving, and the number of Christians in China and Africa is apparently more than the USA, Europe and Australasia combined.
I note the amillenial/postmillenial aspect to Mike Bull’s comments about the Gospel being victorious in history, and whilst this may cause debate, yet it is a prophetic perspective that is in line with the Gospel – optimistic and placing faith in the God Who is here and He is Never Silent (to quote Schaeffer).
Wayne Pelling

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-146254 david skinner Wed, 08 Jul 2009 08:03:57 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-146254 Many of us in Britain also bewail the loss of our idol, Britannia, Britannia that used to rule the waves but which does so no more. Nationalism and all isms are idolatries. Let us not become demoralised by our fading stars, our place in the pantheon of ruling nations, such as the twelve stars of the European Union. Let us instead remember that we are citizens of another kingdom, not bounded by passport controls. Jesus Christ said to Peter, “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Surely that promise should galvanise us into action. We should strive to establish the sovereignty of that other kingdom now, wherever we are placed on the globe, and to drive out all idolatries, as described in Deuteronomy 7. David Skinner, UK Many of us in Britain also bewail the loss of our idol, Britannia, Britannia that used to rule the waves but which does so no more. Nationalism and all isms are idolatries. Let us not become demoralised by our fading stars, our place in the pantheon of ruling nations, such as the twelve stars of the European Union. Let us instead remember that we are citizens of another kingdom, not bounded by passport controls. Jesus Christ said to Peter, “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Surely that promise should galvanise us into action. We should strive to establish the sovereignty of that other kingdom now, wherever we are placed on the globe, and to drive out all idolatries, as described in Deuteronomy 7.

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: Mansel Rogerson http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-146219 Mansel Rogerson Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:20:38 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-146219 Hi Mike, What a great metaphor. Thanks for that. "Many Christians have the idea that the world is God’s Vietnam and we are just waiting for the helicopters." Mansel Rogerson Hi Mike,

What a great metaphor. Thanks for that.

“Many Christians have the idea that the world is God’s Vietnam and we are just waiting for the helicopters.”

Mansel Rogerson

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-146181 Bill Muehlenberg Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:35:50 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-146181 Thanks Mike Hey, I am with you. I have written elsewhere about some of the points you raise, including a view of the end times which leads some believers to have their bags packed, feet up, waiting for the imminent return of the Lord. Of course he might come back at any moment, but then again it could be centuries before he returns. But we are to occupy till he comes, as Jesus tells us in a parable in Luke 19:13. And thanks for the good point about the Esther story. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Mike

Hey, I am with you. I have written elsewhere about some of the points you raise, including a view of the end times which leads some believers to have their bags packed, feet up, waiting for the imminent return of the Lord. Of course he might come back at any moment, but then again it could be centuries before he returns. But we are to occupy till he comes, as Jesus tells us in a parable in Luke 19:13.

And thanks for the good point about the Esther story.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Mike Bull http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-146180 Mike Bull Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:25:51 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-146180 Hello Bill I followed a link via Christianity today from americanvision.org (I'm in Australia) I think John is right. But I also think a faulty eschatology is somewhat to blame. Many Christians have the idea that the world is God's Vietnam and we are just waiting for the helicopters. This has led to a retreat from culture. The gospel, I believe, will be victorious in history. Wherever Christian worship is faithful, God builds a new culture out of the corpse of the old one, and it eventually dominates. The key is not political action or any other kind of action, unless they flow directly out of faithful worship. Judgment begins at the house of God. Like Joseph and Jesus, and unlike Adam, if we are obedient servants, God gives us dominion on a platter because we can be trusted with it. One final comment: in Esther, many Jews were actually comfortable with their captivity, so the Lord promoted Haman to bring about a crisis and a glorious resolution. Perhaps that's where we are today. Mike Bull Hello Bill

I followed a link via Christianity today from http://americanvision.org (I’m in Australia)

I think John is right. But I also think a faulty eschatology is somewhat to blame. Many Christians have the idea that the world is God’s Vietnam and we are just waiting for the helicopters. This has led to a retreat from culture.

The gospel, I believe, will be victorious in history. Wherever Christian worship is faithful, God builds a new culture out of the corpse of the old one, and it eventually dominates. The key is not political action or any other kind of action, unless they flow directly out of faithful worship. Judgment begins at the house of God. Like Joseph and Jesus, and unlike Adam, if we are obedient servants, God gives us dominion on a platter because we can be trusted with it.

One final comment: in Esther, many Jews were actually comfortable with their captivity, so the Lord promoted Haman to bring about a crisis and a glorious resolution. Perhaps that’s where we are today.

Mike Bull

]]> By: John Snowden http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-146166 John Snowden Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:00:38 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-146166 "We have gone from being the leading voice in Western culture to a despised and dispirited minority, flung to the margins of society, having very little impact on the secular West." Despised? Yes, in the universities and the Hollywood circus. Secular universities are of course the main source of bad ideas. Don't know how you can reverse that. Get more committed Christians into politics perhaps. There should also be a massive effort to make people aware of their positive Christian heritage. That film on Wilberforce was a great idea. There are many other lantern bearers to be admired. How about the Christians who helped the Jews? What minority? There are hundreds of millions of Christians on the planet. Lots of resources there. The churches have to be cleaned up too. Sacking that intellectualising fence sitter in Canterbury should be top priority. John Snowden “We have gone from being the leading voice in Western culture to a despised and dispirited minority, flung to the margins of society, having very little impact on the secular West.”

Despised? Yes, in the universities and the Hollywood circus. Secular universities are of course the main source of bad ideas. Don’t know how you can reverse that. Get more committed Christians into politics perhaps. There should also be a massive effort to make people aware of their positive Christian heritage. That film on Wilberforce was a great idea. There are many other lantern bearers to be admired. How about the Christians who helped the Jews?

What minority? There are hundreds of millions of Christians on the planet. Lots of resources there. The churches have to be cleaned up too. Sacking that intellectualising fence sitter in Canterbury should be top priority.

John Snowden

]]> By: Steve Swartz http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-146128 Steve Swartz Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:05:39 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-146128 Bill, are you aware of the prayer initiative to be found at www.10000warriors.com? There you can find an excellent prayer for the plight of our nation and cities. The aim is to have as many people as possible take ten minutes out of their schedule this Friday, the 10th, to prayer this prayer individually or in groups. I have already been praying it. Steve Swartz Bill, are you aware of the prayer initiative to be found at http://www.10000warriors.com? There you can find an excellent prayer for the plight of our nation and cities. The aim is to have as many people as possible take ten minutes out of their schedule this Friday, the 10th, to prayer this prayer individually or in groups. I have already been praying it.
Steve Swartz

]]> By: Barry Koh http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-146116 Barry Koh Tue, 07 Jul 2009 04:04:21 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-146116 Bill, Multiculturalism is not best described by its technical definition or interpretation.The idea is not carved on tablets of stones.The better definition is in the living application of it or its subtance and from that we see there are certainly much more benefit than flaws.No concept or system is perfect but do you throw away the baby with the bath water. I may not necessarily be attracted to a different culture or or agree with a particular belief system of another culture but I learn to respect their beliefs without compromising my faith. It does not prevent us from preaching the true gospel the apostles taught, though it may require one to be more diplomatic, knowing the sensitivities of other cultures but that should not be a major hindrance to evangelism. The decline of the church and christianity in the western world which began years ago, has been its own doing and little to do with the pressure from other cultures and beliefs system or from the recent multicuturalism. If non western culture and beliefs have a negative effect on the christian faith and values,then how is it that God thinks otherwise and allow this often regarded "western religion" to greatly thrive and flourish in pagan countries of Asia,Africa,and South America while the western world remain in decline.As such I find it hard to agree that multicuturalism is an external threat to the church and christian values.Secularism,athiestism and the preaching of another different gospel is the real, if not form almost the whole threat to the church. As long as we refuse to face the truth, and instead make excuses and blame others for the gradual decline of the church,we will continue to bark at the wrong tree and fail to address the real issue, an error the external enemy will love to see as fall into, leading to our own destruction. The vilification laws are a recent development arising from freedom to speak the truth about the long term militant and territorial intent of the jihadists.This recent development intensified particularly after the rise of the talibans ,9/11, and al Qaida.While I do not dispute the right to speak forthrightly,I question why put the blame on multicuturalism.Should we now throw out the baby as well because of Bin Ladin and the jihadists.Are the rest also to be penalised on account of him. The church is still very much in danger not so much now from the long term threats of its external enemies, but from the immediate threats coming now from within the church and its local populace.We need more watchmen where the immediate dangers are now threatening us , and quit barking at the wrong tree. It's not just the methods of preaching the gospel that are changing but the gospel itself is now becoming another gospel.(Gal 1:8,9) Thanks Bill. Barry Koh Bill,
Multiculturalism is not best described by its technical definition or interpretation.The idea is not carved on tablets of stones.The better definition is in the living application of it or its subtance and from that we see there are certainly much more benefit than flaws.No concept or system is perfect but do you throw away the baby with the bath water. I may not necessarily be attracted to a different culture or or agree with a particular belief system of another culture but I learn to respect their beliefs without compromising my faith. It does not prevent us from preaching the true gospel the apostles taught, though it may require one to be more diplomatic, knowing the sensitivities of other cultures but that should not be a major hindrance to evangelism.
The decline of the church and christianity in the western world which began years ago, has been its own doing and little to do with the pressure from other cultures and beliefs system or from the recent multicuturalism. If non western culture and beliefs have a negative effect on the christian faith and values,then how is it that God thinks otherwise and allow this often regarded “western religion” to greatly thrive and flourish in pagan countries of Asia,Africa,and South America while the western world remain in decline.As such I find it hard to agree that multicuturalism is an external threat to the church and christian values.Secularism,athiestism and the preaching of another different gospel is the real, if not form almost the whole threat to the church.

As long as we refuse to face the truth, and instead make excuses and blame others for the gradual decline of the church,we will continue to bark at the wrong tree and fail to address the real issue, an error the external enemy will love to see as fall into, leading to our own destruction.

The vilification laws are a recent development arising from freedom to speak the truth about the long term militant and territorial intent of the jihadists.This recent development intensified particularly after the rise of the talibans ,9/11, and al Qaida.While I do not dispute the right to speak forthrightly,I question why put the blame on multicuturalism.Should we now throw out the baby as well because of Bin Ladin and the jihadists.Are the rest also to be penalised on account of him.

The church is still very much in danger not so much now from the long term threats of its external enemies, but from the immediate threats coming now from within the church and its local populace.We need more watchmen where the immediate dangers are now threatening us , and quit barking at the wrong tree. It’s not just the methods of preaching the gospel that are changing but the gospel itself is now becoming another gospel.(Gal 1:8,9) Thanks Bill.

Barry Koh

]]> By: Martin http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/05/by-the-rivers-of-babylon/comment-page-1/#comment-146072 Martin Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:38:49 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1705#comment-146072 Thank you Bill. A reformation awaits us... May the good Lord halt the Institutionalizing of self. We truely confine ourselves. Martin Van Dyk Thank you Bill.

A reformation awaits us…
May the good Lord halt the Institutionalizing of self.
We truely confine ourselves.

Martin Van Dyk

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