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	<title>Comments on: Science as Saviour</title>
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	<description>Bill Muehlenberg&#039;s commentary on issues of the day...</description>
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		<title>By: Leon Brooks</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-144916</link>
		<dc:creator>Leon Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-144916</guid>
		<description>Bill &amp; Ben, I would agree with Bill about it being both.

Due to their basic faith (Materialism) many scientists will ignore or misread information which clashes with their faith.

Reports from such people will mislead others who would otherwise take a more honest approach.

I saw an interesting example of this, recently. It was reported a few days ago that the 1908 Tunguska meteorite was really a comet:

http://www.physorg.com/news165077281.html

Michael Kelley, Distinguished Professor, evidently failed to explore the larger ramifications of this.

The Plasma people, who are far from Creationists, but regularly publish raw data &amp; insightful exploration of it which completely undermines the Big Bang, would point out that our misunderstanding of some very basic cosmological facts (such as 99+% of everything being plasma) definitely leaves room for a recent beginning.

The fact that the Big Bang cannot possibly work is obscured by the first group (who reinterpret according to presumed belief), so the second group are then free to assume what they wish, based on this non-data.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/

Leon Brooks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill &amp; Ben, I would agree with Bill about it being both.</p>
<p>Due to their basic faith (Materialism) many scientists will ignore or misread information which clashes with their faith.</p>
<p>Reports from such people will mislead others who would otherwise take a more honest approach.</p>
<p>I saw an interesting example of this, recently. It was reported a few days ago that the 1908 Tunguska meteorite was really a comet:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.physorg.com/news165077281.html" rel="nofollow">www.physorg.com/news165077281.html</a></p>
<p>Michael Kelley, Distinguished Professor, evidently failed to explore the larger ramifications of this.</p>
<p>The Plasma people, who are far from Creationists, but regularly publish raw data &amp; insightful exploration of it which completely undermines the Big Bang, would point out that our misunderstanding of some very basic cosmological facts (such as 99+% of everything being plasma) definitely leaves room for a recent beginning.</p>
<p>The fact that the Big Bang cannot possibly work is obscured by the first group (who reinterpret according to presumed belief), so the second group are then free to assume what they wish, based on this non-data.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thunderbolts.info/" rel="nofollow">www.thunderbolts.info/</a></p>
<p>Leon Brooks</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Rice</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-144134</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Rice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-144134</guid>
		<description>A basic belief of our Christian religion is in Genesis Chapter 1 which states that God made the earth and all it has in it. This is a comfortable belief to most believers, but it mentions nothing about scientists and I believe He imagined that the humans he created would discover all the things He provided. Scientist, I believe, are still doing this but some scientists misuse what they find and they believe this will gain an advantage and one might be to use an atomic weapon to win a war. But much of what scientist &#039;discover&#039; is of the earth and it does not reach outside the earth (except perhaps for space exploration) where we know God is becouse he also created the universe. My belief is that man must judge man (scientists in this case) and do all possible to deal with scientists who misuse their knowledge. It seems too many people in the past have turned a blind eye to misuse of scientific knowledge and many in our society tends to turn away when they should raise their voices in protest.
Peter Rice</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A basic belief of our Christian religion is in Genesis Chapter 1 which states that God made the earth and all it has in it. This is a comfortable belief to most believers, but it mentions nothing about scientists and I believe He imagined that the humans he created would discover all the things He provided. Scientist, I believe, are still doing this but some scientists misuse what they find and they believe this will gain an advantage and one might be to use an atomic weapon to win a war. But much of what scientist &#8216;discover&#8217; is of the earth and it does not reach outside the earth (except perhaps for space exploration) where we know God is becouse he also created the universe. My belief is that man must judge man (scientists in this case) and do all possible to deal with scientists who misuse their knowledge. It seems too many people in the past have turned a blind eye to misuse of scientific knowledge and many in our society tends to turn away when they should raise their voices in protest.<br />
Peter Rice</p>
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		<title>By: John Snowden</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-144021</link>
		<dc:creator>John Snowden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-144021</guid>
		<description>One of the frauds in science that interests me is the 1973 decision of the American Psychiatric Association to strike homosexuality from its approved list of mental disorders. All I have read so far points to this being the result of political influence. There was no crystallising  breakthrough in research into the causes of homosexuality at the time to warrant the change. Nor was it the succinct result of cumulative research proving that homosexuality had causes innocent of dysfunction or pathology. 

What would we think of physicists or chemists who changed their theories in response to political pressure or the ignorant opinion of liberal elites? Would we pay them to design, say, a spaceship with their new theories?

The American Psychological Association, a semi-political organisation not known for pursuing scientific rigour consistently, eventually followed the above poor example of medical science prostituting itself. Within the last few days I have read the opinion of a psychologist who said he approved of this change but nevertheless urged his colleagues at the time to research the subject further to scientifically justify the change. Liberal ideology first, science later.

There was also an attempt to remove paedophilia from the official list of mental disorders. I don&#039;t know the outcome of that yet. In particular I don&#039;t know if the culprits were the usual suspects. Or was it the clique that wanted coffee addiction listed to flesh out the official nomenclature that undergirds the economic base of the psychiatric profession?

John Snowden</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the frauds in science that interests me is the 1973 decision of the American Psychiatric Association to strike homosexuality from its approved list of mental disorders. All I have read so far points to this being the result of political influence. There was no crystallising  breakthrough in research into the causes of homosexuality at the time to warrant the change. Nor was it the succinct result of cumulative research proving that homosexuality had causes innocent of dysfunction or pathology. </p>
<p>What would we think of physicists or chemists who changed their theories in response to political pressure or the ignorant opinion of liberal elites? Would we pay them to design, say, a spaceship with their new theories?</p>
<p>The American Psychological Association, a semi-political organisation not known for pursuing scientific rigour consistently, eventually followed the above poor example of medical science prostituting itself. Within the last few days I have read the opinion of a psychologist who said he approved of this change but nevertheless urged his colleagues at the time to research the subject further to scientifically justify the change. Liberal ideology first, science later.</p>
<p>There was also an attempt to remove paedophilia from the official list of mental disorders. I don&#8217;t know the outcome of that yet. In particular I don&#8217;t know if the culprits were the usual suspects. Or was it the clique that wanted coffee addiction listed to flesh out the official nomenclature that undergirds the economic base of the psychiatric profession?</p>
<p>John Snowden</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-143854</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 05:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-143854</guid>
		<description>Thanks Ben

I actually think it is both. There are of course rogue scientists, dishonest scientists, and the like. Not all of them are obviously. But many people do see science as saviour. As part of the Enlightenment project, there really is a (misplaced) faith in science to come up with all the goods, to solve all our problems, and lead us into the Promised Land.

That is why of course, in part, Postmodernism has arisen as a protest movement against modernism and its emphasis on science and technology, progress and an overly optimistic view of life. While I have of course many problems with PoMo, it is right to question many of the core assumptions of modernism, including its tendency to turn science in scientism.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ben</p>
<p>I actually think it is both. There are of course rogue scientists, dishonest scientists, and the like. Not all of them are obviously. But many people do see science as saviour. As part of the Enlightenment project, there really is a (misplaced) faith in science to come up with all the goods, to solve all our problems, and lead us into the Promised Land.</p>
<p>That is why of course, in part, Postmodernism has arisen as a protest movement against modernism and its emphasis on science and technology, progress and an overly optimistic view of life. While I have of course many problems with PoMo, it is right to question many of the core assumptions of modernism, including its tendency to turn science in scientism.</p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-143817</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-143817</guid>
		<description>Hi Bill,

I am not sure if I really follow this article. If a house falls down do we blame the hammer? We must make a clear distinction between the science and the scientist. As an example, you refer to nuclear technology. One scientist will make devastating weapons form it yet another will make electricity. The science has not changed just the use of it has. To attack science per say makes no sense., the real culprit is the scientist and as we both know that area can be populated with quite odd people. Maybe a better heading might be Scientists as Saviors??
Ben Green</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bill,</p>
<p>I am not sure if I really follow this article. If a house falls down do we blame the hammer? We must make a clear distinction between the science and the scientist. As an example, you refer to nuclear technology. One scientist will make devastating weapons form it yet another will make electricity. The science has not changed just the use of it has. To attack science per say makes no sense., the real culprit is the scientist and as we both know that area can be populated with quite odd people. Maybe a better heading might be Scientists as Saviors??<br />
Ben Green</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Kulikovsky</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-143467</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Kulikovsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-143467</guid>
		<description>For more examples of dishonesty, suppression and fraud etc and how the peer-review process does little to alleviate it, see my article: http://creation.com/creationism-science-and-peer-review 
Andrew Kulikovsky </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For more examples of dishonesty, suppression and fraud etc and how the peer-review process does little to alleviate it, see my article: <a href="http://creation.com/creationism-science-and-peer-review" rel="nofollow">creation.com/creationism-science-and-peer-review</a><br />
Andrew Kulikovsky</p>
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		<title>By: Dunstan Hartley</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-143462</link>
		<dc:creator>Dunstan Hartley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-143462</guid>
		<description>Did anybody consider the cures promised using embryonic stemcell research based on cloning?
Dunstan Hartley</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did anybody consider the cures promised using embryonic stemcell research based on cloning?<br />
Dunstan Hartley</p>
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		<title>By: Murray Adamthwaite</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-143383</link>
		<dc:creator>Murray Adamthwaite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-143383</guid>
		<description>Thank you Ewan!
Yes, I did consider evolution before I posted my response, and I would, over all, agree with you. However, that said, I think a couple of points should be made:
1. Evolution represents more a philosophical shift than outright deliberate fraud. Yes, there have been sheer frauds associated with evolution (Piltdown man, Peking man, peppered moths and the like), but the basic problem has been this philosophical mindset, such that scientists see what they want to see, and what their philosophical framework dictates that they see. Take a simple example: alleged horse evolution. Even some evolutionists have pointed out that the parade diagram purportedly showing the evolution of the horse is nothing more than various horse-like creatures arranged in order of size from left to right. What happened post-Darwin (and had been happening even before Darwin) was a new deistic, even atheistic, paradigm shift. Regrettably, it was churchmen who came on side early as they fell over each other in their zeal to &#039;harmonise&#039; Genesis with the long ages Darwinism required. However, that new paradigm persists to this day. This is the real problem, not so much deliberate fraud.

2. As to propaganda, yes, there is much that is nothing more than mendacious brainwashing, and not-so-subtle suggestion dropped at convenient intervals. Just look at the typical David Attenborough nature programme on TV! However, even here, from the evolutionist&#039;s standpoint, it is not so much deliberate fraud as his whole-soul commitment to the evolutionary philosophical outlook, such that he sees everything from within that framework, just as a Christian sees everything from a Creation-Providence framework.

The global warming hype, by contrast, has so much to it that just is deliberate fraud, lies, propaganda, cover-up, and corruption at the highest level. The best comparison, in my view, is the thalidomide scandal of the early 1960s and the overtly fraudulent work of William McBride - for which he was later convicted. The trouble is, that, it is so much a part of the UN and its affiliated governments that we can be confident that no-one will ever be arraigned or convicted before a human court. We must leave it to the judgment of The Great Day (Jude 6).
Murray Adamthwaite
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Ewan!<br />
Yes, I did consider evolution before I posted my response, and I would, over all, agree with you. However, that said, I think a couple of points should be made:<br />
1. Evolution represents more a philosophical shift than outright deliberate fraud. Yes, there have been sheer frauds associated with evolution (Piltdown man, Peking man, peppered moths and the like), but the basic problem has been this philosophical mindset, such that scientists see what they want to see, and what their philosophical framework dictates that they see. Take a simple example: alleged horse evolution. Even some evolutionists have pointed out that the parade diagram purportedly showing the evolution of the horse is nothing more than various horse-like creatures arranged in order of size from left to right. What happened post-Darwin (and had been happening even before Darwin) was a new deistic, even atheistic, paradigm shift. Regrettably, it was churchmen who came on side early as they fell over each other in their zeal to &#8216;harmonise&#8217; Genesis with the long ages Darwinism required. However, that new paradigm persists to this day. This is the real problem, not so much deliberate fraud.</p>
<p>2. As to propaganda, yes, there is much that is nothing more than mendacious brainwashing, and not-so-subtle suggestion dropped at convenient intervals. Just look at the typical David Attenborough nature programme on TV! However, even here, from the evolutionist&#8217;s standpoint, it is not so much deliberate fraud as his whole-soul commitment to the evolutionary philosophical outlook, such that he sees everything from within that framework, just as a Christian sees everything from a Creation-Providence framework.</p>
<p>The global warming hype, by contrast, has so much to it that just is deliberate fraud, lies, propaganda, cover-up, and corruption at the highest level. The best comparison, in my view, is the thalidomide scandal of the early 1960s and the overtly fraudulent work of William McBride &#8211; for which he was later convicted. The trouble is, that, it is so much a part of the UN and its affiliated governments that we can be confident that no-one will ever be arraigned or convicted before a human court. We must leave it to the judgment of The Great Day (Jude 6).<br />
Murray Adamthwaite</p>
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		<title>By: Ewan</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-143307</link>
		<dc:creator>Ewan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-143307</guid>
		<description>To differ slightly with Murray, I would rate evolutionary propaganda ahead of global-warming propaganda in the contest for the world&#039;s worst example of scientific fraud and deception. Evolutionary propaganda has been around for longer and has deceived more people than has global warming propaganda. I&#039;m not saying the proponents of either of these example are deliberately setting out to deceive us, it&#039;s more a case of them being self-deceived. The enforced group-think in both of these areas is an impediment to free inquiry.

Ewan McDonald.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To differ slightly with Murray, I would rate evolutionary propaganda ahead of global-warming propaganda in the contest for the world&#8217;s worst example of scientific fraud and deception. Evolutionary propaganda has been around for longer and has deceived more people than has global warming propaganda. I&#8217;m not saying the proponents of either of these example are deliberately setting out to deceive us, it&#8217;s more a case of them being self-deceived. The enforced group-think in both of these areas is an impediment to free inquiry.</p>
<p>Ewan McDonald.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/06/17/science-as-saviour/comment-page-1/#comment-143306</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1614#comment-143306</guid>
		<description>Thanks Tristan

Yes, scientism is self-refuting. It cannot be scientifically verified. One simply cannot empirically demonstrate that all non-empirical truth claims cannot be known, or are meaningless. Indeed, science rests on non-empirical assumptions, including the reliability of sense perception, the uniformity of nature, and so on. These are philosophical assumptions upon which science is based

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Tristan</p>
<p>Yes, scientism is self-refuting. It cannot be scientifically verified. One simply cannot empirically demonstrate that all non-empirical truth claims cannot be known, or are meaningless. Indeed, science rests on non-empirical assumptions, including the reliability of sense perception, the uniformity of nature, and so on. These are philosophical assumptions upon which science is based</p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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