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	<title>Comments on: Abortion Wars: The Fear of Man or the Fear of God</title>
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	<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/</link>
	<description>Bill Muehlenberg&#039;s commentary on issues of the day...</description>
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		<title>By: Queenie Ratnajeya</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-159825</link>
		<dc:creator>Queenie Ratnajeya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 11:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-159825</guid>
		<description>I agree with you Bill, May 17 was a dark day in American history, a dark day for Notre Dame, and a dark day for many Catholics. Things will only get darker unless Christians of all
stripes band together and fight one of the most important battles of our time. We can do no less for the unborn. It is true.  But what the Church is going to do?
The Church must stand against the evil of abortion.  The Christian writers through the fourth century consistently opposed all abortion without distinctions or exceptions. The Fathers of the Church of the East and of the West emphasized the sanctity of unborn life. Their statements give a many-faceted opposition to abortion. Athenagoras wrote to Emperor Marcus Aurelius in 177 said that ‘all who use abortifacient are homicides and will account to God for their abortion as for the killing of men. For the fetus in the womb is not an animal, and it is God’s providence that he exist. Clement of Alexandria, the Father of Theologians, wrote in 215 that abortions and abortifacient drugs ‘destroy utterly the embryo and, with it, the love of man.  
The Eastern Church, strangely enough first introduced into ecclesiastical literature the notion of the formed and unformed fetus.  The apostolic constitution in 400 condemned the killing of a ‘formed fetus’.  Despite the name, these apocryphal Syrian canons were not of apostolic origin.  Moreover, the work was not very influential on this point in the
East. The early Church took form decision to honor God and not afraid of men. But now as Christians, we have the resources and courage and above all the strength of God
with us. Are we going to sit in silence?
Queenie Ratnajeya</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you Bill, May 17 was a dark day in American history, a dark day for Notre Dame, and a dark day for many Catholics. Things will only get darker unless Christians of all<br />
stripes band together and fight one of the most important battles of our time. We can do no less for the unborn. It is true.  But what the Church is going to do?<br />
The Church must stand against the evil of abortion.  The Christian writers through the fourth century consistently opposed all abortion without distinctions or exceptions. The Fathers of the Church of the East and of the West emphasized the sanctity of unborn life. Their statements give a many-faceted opposition to abortion. Athenagoras wrote to Emperor Marcus Aurelius in 177 said that ‘all who use abortifacient are homicides and will account to God for their abortion as for the killing of men. For the fetus in the womb is not an animal, and it is God’s providence that he exist. Clement of Alexandria, the Father of Theologians, wrote in 215 that abortions and abortifacient drugs ‘destroy utterly the embryo and, with it, the love of man.<br />
The Eastern Church, strangely enough first introduced into ecclesiastical literature the notion of the formed and unformed fetus.  The apostolic constitution in 400 condemned the killing of a ‘formed fetus’.  Despite the name, these apocryphal Syrian canons were not of apostolic origin.  Moreover, the work was not very influential on this point in the<br />
East. The early Church took form decision to honor God and not afraid of men. But now as Christians, we have the resources and courage and above all the strength of God<br />
with us. Are we going to sit in silence?<br />
Queenie Ratnajeya</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-139486</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 11:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-139486</guid>
		<description>Sorry, Keith, for not being clear regarding my comment &quot;What about an assignment on ‘research on “medical waste”?’ I wasn&#039;t meaning to be frivolous or demeaning to the unborn here, but simply suggesting a possible abortion assignment alternative.

In South Australia (and no doubt in other states) the term &quot;medical waste&quot; is employed by the abortion clinics and hospitals in an attempt to further screen the public from the truth of what abortion does to unborn babies. “Medical waste” is easier to dispose of than “bodies of unborn babies”.  

Of course, we are not meant to seriously consider what really happens to the unborn babies once they are aborted; it is very much a case of &quot;out of sight, out of mind&quot;. And this leads me to the other point I was also refrring to: rather than being incinerated, some of these tiny infants are/have been used for research, which raises further ethical concerns. 

For example, in 2003, the Medical Journal of Australia printed an article: Use of human foetal tissue for biomedical research in Australia, 1994-2002 (MJA 2003, 179(10):547-550), which admits to the practice of foetal research in Australia.  It states:

From 1994 to 2002, 19 separate biomedical researchers at 12 separate Australian institutions (four universities, six major teaching hospitals and two research institutes) used human foetal tissue in their research. … There was an increase in the use of bone/cartilage during 1996-2001, kidneys during 1996-1999, and liver and spinal cord over the past 4 years. 

And so the insanity goes on ... here, in Australia; in the US, and around the world. So when someone as influential as Obama says &#039;Yes&#039; to the killing of the unborn (and all that goes with it), and the crowds cheer and applaud, we know God&#039;s grace can only be held out for so long.

Trevor Grace</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Keith, for not being clear regarding my comment &#8220;What about an assignment on ‘research on “medical waste”?’ I wasn&#8217;t meaning to be frivolous or demeaning to the unborn here, but simply suggesting a possible abortion assignment alternative.</p>
<p>In South Australia (and no doubt in other states) the term &#8220;medical waste&#8221; is employed by the abortion clinics and hospitals in an attempt to further screen the public from the truth of what abortion does to unborn babies. “Medical waste” is easier to dispose of than “bodies of unborn babies”.  </p>
<p>Of course, we are not meant to seriously consider what really happens to the unborn babies once they are aborted; it is very much a case of &#8220;out of sight, out of mind&#8221;. And this leads me to the other point I was also refrring to: rather than being incinerated, some of these tiny infants are/have been used for research, which raises further ethical concerns. </p>
<p>For example, in 2003, the Medical Journal of Australia printed an article: Use of human foetal tissue for biomedical research in Australia, 1994-2002 (MJA 2003, 179(10):547-550), which admits to the practice of foetal research in Australia.  It states:</p>
<p>From 1994 to 2002, 19 separate biomedical researchers at 12 separate Australian institutions (four universities, six major teaching hospitals and two research institutes) used human foetal tissue in their research. … There was an increase in the use of bone/cartilage during 1996-2001, kidneys during 1996-1999, and liver and spinal cord over the past 4 years. </p>
<p>And so the insanity goes on &#8230; here, in Australia; in the US, and around the world. So when someone as influential as Obama says &#8216;Yes&#8217; to the killing of the unborn (and all that goes with it), and the crowds cheer and applaud, we know God&#8217;s grace can only be held out for so long.</p>
<p>Trevor Grace</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Jarrett</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-139421</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Jarrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 01:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-139421</guid>
		<description>Cheers Bill, I thought there was something in the comment I wasn&#039;t picking up. I really am doing a disservice to Trevor for being so slow on the up-take!

It isn&#039;t a laughing matter the issue of abortion, but it is laughable how inconsistent the rights based people can be. Bill your aptly-titled article &quot;Killing Babies to Improve Their Health&quot; highlights this inconsistency and shows just how lost people are...

Ok, no more comments from me. Better get back to the 4,000 word essay we have in ethics explaining why Peter Singer&#039;s views are right. I have never before in my life felt more like the devil&#039;s advocate.

Keith Jarrett</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheers Bill, I thought there was something in the comment I wasn&#8217;t picking up. I really am doing a disservice to Trevor for being so slow on the up-take!</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t a laughing matter the issue of abortion, but it is laughable how inconsistent the rights based people can be. Bill your aptly-titled article &#8220;Killing Babies to Improve Their Health&#8221; highlights this inconsistency and shows just how lost people are&#8230;</p>
<p>Ok, no more comments from me. Better get back to the 4,000 word essay we have in ethics explaining why Peter Singer&#8217;s views are right. I have never before in my life felt more like the devil&#8217;s advocate.</p>
<p>Keith Jarrett</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-139416</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 00:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-139416</guid>
		<description>Thanks Keith

Trevor was engaging in some humour, even with such a tragic topic. Disposing of medical waste is a basic health concern, and of course much of the medical community would consider aborted babies to be nothing other than medical waste. 

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Keith</p>
<p>Trevor was engaging in some humour, even with such a tragic topic. Disposing of medical waste is a basic health concern, and of course much of the medical community would consider aborted babies to be nothing other than medical waste. </p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Jarrett</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-139410</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Jarrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 23:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-139410</guid>
		<description>Thanks Trevor but I was assigned a topic in the end and I am not sure what you mean by &#039;research on &quot;medical waste&quot;. 

I like the point you make in the post above, what is wrong with demonizing a party that is clearly in the wrong? 

Also it is amazing how often Obama in his speeches aims at rectifiying right and left agendas.... I cannot see how he thinks that he can do this with regard to abortion. 

I thought the quote below from the article humorously illustrates what Obama is trying to do.

&quot;What do I have to do to get you murderers and you non-murderers to shake hands and be friends?&quot;

Keith Jarrett</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Trevor but I was assigned a topic in the end and I am not sure what you mean by &#8216;research on &#8220;medical waste&#8221;. </p>
<p>I like the point you make in the post above, what is wrong with demonizing a party that is clearly in the wrong? </p>
<p>Also it is amazing how often Obama in his speeches aims at rectifiying right and left agendas&#8230;. I cannot see how he thinks that he can do this with regard to abortion. </p>
<p>I thought the quote below from the article humorously illustrates what Obama is trying to do.</p>
<p>&#8220;What do I have to do to get you murderers and you non-murderers to shake hands and be friends?&#8221;</p>
<p>Keith Jarrett</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-139305</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 11:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-139305</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s quite easy to answer Obama&#039;s question of, ‘How does each of us [for abortion and against] remain firm in our principles … without demonizing those with just as strongly held convictions on the other side?’  If the bloody atrocities perpetrated by the Hitlers and Stalins of this world can be called demonic, so too can the bloody killing of unborn babies be called demonic. 

No doubt, Obama (like Hitler and Stalin) has convinced himself that by reaffirming the murdering of society’s most innocent and vulnerable, he is somehow rendering a humanitarian service to the world. At least there are some who are prepared to tell him he’s wrong.

Trevor Grace 

PS  Keith Jarrett, you mention your uni lecturers won&#039;t let you do an ethics assignment on abortion. What about an assignment on &#039;research on &quot;medical waste&quot; &#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s quite easy to answer Obama&#8217;s question of, ‘How does each of us [for abortion and against] remain firm in our principles … without demonizing those with just as strongly held convictions on the other side?’  If the bloody atrocities perpetrated by the Hitlers and Stalins of this world can be called demonic, so too can the bloody killing of unborn babies be called demonic. </p>
<p>No doubt, Obama (like Hitler and Stalin) has convinced himself that by reaffirming the murdering of society’s most innocent and vulnerable, he is somehow rendering a humanitarian service to the world. At least there are some who are prepared to tell him he’s wrong.</p>
<p>Trevor Grace </p>
<p>PS  Keith Jarrett, you mention your uni lecturers won&#8217;t let you do an ethics assignment on abortion. What about an assignment on &#8216;research on &#8220;medical waste&#8221; &#8216;?</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-139266</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 04:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-139266</guid>
		<description>Many thanks Keith

Yes I hope to keep it up until I am finally silenced – and that may not be too far off, the way things are going. I hope you do well with your assignment. Thanks for your concern and involvement.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many thanks Keith</p>
<p>Yes I hope to keep it up until I am finally silenced – and that may not be too far off, the way things are going. I hope you do well with your assignment. Thanks for your concern and involvement.</p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Jarrett</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-139265</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Jarrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 04:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-139265</guid>
		<description>The news you bring is appalling Bill but it does inspire me to do something about it. I am studying ethics at university and an assignment was given for a powerpoint presentation. We were apparently allowed to formulate our any ethical dilemma in medicine for the presentation &lt;i&gt; except &lt;/i&gt; for on the topic of abortion. Go figure.

I have been trying real hard to get my Christian friends to become more engaged in the world, and your articles are forever an encouragement (if not sheer warning) for me to do so.

Thanks for bringing news that is actually important. Keep it up.

Keith Jarrett</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The news you bring is appalling Bill but it does inspire me to do something about it. I am studying ethics at university and an assignment was given for a powerpoint presentation. We were apparently allowed to formulate our any ethical dilemma in medicine for the presentation <i> except </i> for on the topic of abortion. Go figure.</p>
<p>I have been trying real hard to get my Christian friends to become more engaged in the world, and your articles are forever an encouragement (if not sheer warning) for me to do so.</p>
<p>Thanks for bringing news that is actually important. Keep it up.</p>
<p>Keith Jarrett</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-139240</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 01:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-139240</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mark

Also of interest is the fact that for the first time since 1995, the majority of Americans describe themselves as prolife: http://www.lifenews.com/nat5053.html 

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mark</p>
<p>Also of interest is the fact that for the first time since 1995, the majority of Americans describe themselves as prolife: <a href="http://www.lifenews.com/nat5053.html" rel="nofollow">www.lifenews.com/nat5053.html</a> </p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Rabich</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/05/21/abortion-wars-the-fear-of-man-or-the-fear-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-139209</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Rabich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 20:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1533#comment-139209</guid>
		<description>One thing that is beginning to hearten me about this battle is that some youth, historically known in most generations to question what their parents did, are beginning to identify abortion as one of the old things to be critiqued.  And given that science and ultrasounds clearly give lie to the message of the murder-advocates and profiteers, it&#039;s a lot easier for the new generations to get upset about it.

This writer, Gingi Edmonds, is just one example: (she was at Notre Dame for the protests)

http://www.gingiedmonds.com/May192009.html

And during the recent Victorian law &#039;reform&#039; of abortion, it was a bunch a young people that got very active (including shouting down parliament when the legislation passed) and formed themselves into a new organization, Youth For Life.

This is speculation, but I can&#039;t help but wonder if abortion ends up being supported by many people after they become sexually active and find themselves having to unexpectedly deal with the realities of human life.  Only they make the wrong decision, and later facing up to the truth is too much for them to bear.  Perhaps the pro-life cause could do some massive long-term damage to the pro-death-ites by a sustained campaign educating adolescents and pre-teens (not sure how young you would go) simply on the development of the human being in the womb from conception.  It&#039;s a thought...

As for Obama - here&#039;s a quote I got in an email from Family Research Council:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Cardinal Francis George of Chicago gave us another view of the President&#039;s empathy after the two met in March. Cardinal George said, &#039;It&#039;s hard to disagree with [President Obama] because he&#039;ll always tell you he agrees with you. Maybe that&#039;s political. I think he sincerely wants to agree with you. You have to say, again and again, &quot;No, Mr. President, we don&#039;t agree.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Good on you, Francis.  By their fruit you shall know them.  BHO wants to give the impression in his speeches he is looking for so-called middle ground, but his track record speaks for itself.  It&#039;s pretty clear what Obama stands for, and it&#039;s the killing of defenceless human beings and protecting the industry that makes money from it.  It&#039;s getting difficult to imagine how he could actually be worse.  He is the personification of evil and it is totally despicable that he was even allowed into Notre Dame, let alone honoured.  People who care were right to protest.

Mark Rabich</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that is beginning to hearten me about this battle is that some youth, historically known in most generations to question what their parents did, are beginning to identify abortion as one of the old things to be critiqued.  And given that science and ultrasounds clearly give lie to the message of the murder-advocates and profiteers, it&#8217;s a lot easier for the new generations to get upset about it.</p>
<p>This writer, Gingi Edmonds, is just one example: (she was at Notre Dame for the protests)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.gingiedmonds.com/May192009.html" rel="nofollow">www.gingiedmonds.com/May192009.html</a></p>
<p>And during the recent Victorian law &#8216;reform&#8217; of abortion, it was a bunch a young people that got very active (including shouting down parliament when the legislation passed) and formed themselves into a new organization, Youth For Life.</p>
<p>This is speculation, but I can&#8217;t help but wonder if abortion ends up being supported by many people after they become sexually active and find themselves having to unexpectedly deal with the realities of human life.  Only they make the wrong decision, and later facing up to the truth is too much for them to bear.  Perhaps the pro-life cause could do some massive long-term damage to the pro-death-ites by a sustained campaign educating adolescents and pre-teens (not sure how young you would go) simply on the development of the human being in the womb from conception.  It&#8217;s a thought&#8230;</p>
<p>As for Obama &#8211; here&#8217;s a quote I got in an email from Family Research Council:</p>
<blockquote><p>Cardinal Francis George of Chicago gave us another view of the President&#8217;s empathy after the two met in March. Cardinal George said, &#8216;It&#8217;s hard to disagree with [President Obama] because he&#8217;ll always tell you he agrees with you. Maybe that&#8217;s political. I think he sincerely wants to agree with you. You have to say, again and again, &#8220;No, Mr. President, we don&#8217;t agree.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Good on you, Francis.  By their fruit you shall know them.  BHO wants to give the impression in his speeches he is looking for so-called middle ground, but his track record speaks for itself.  It&#8217;s pretty clear what Obama stands for, and it&#8217;s the killing of defenceless human beings and protecting the industry that makes money from it.  It&#8217;s getting difficult to imagine how he could actually be worse.  He is the personification of evil and it is totally despicable that he was even allowed into Notre Dame, let alone honoured.  People who care were right to protest.</p>
<p>Mark Rabich</p>
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