Another classic case of shooting the messenger. Thanks for displaying yet again the hypocrisy of your camp. Homosexual activists are always to be believed – except when they say something embarrassing to the cause. Then simply turn around and shoot the messenger who highlights what was said.

Homosexuals having sex with animals? Yes of course only a right-wing bigot would say such a thing. But what happens when this is a direct quote from a very popular and much-touted homosexual book? I can easily supply chapter and verse here. Thus it is your side, not mine, that was quite happy to talk about animal sex as but one more option in the homosexualist world.

And you perfectly encapsulate the illogic of hate crimes legislation. Whenever someone stands up and proclaims truth, simply label it as hate. It sure beats actually having to deal with the arguments.

And it is not my website that will keep you from Christianity. What keeps all of us away from Christ is our sin and selfishness, of which homosexuality is only one expression. The first step in coming to Christ is to agree with God that we are indeed sinners in need of forgiveness, cleansing and new life. We each must make that decision for ourselves. No cheap excuses will be allowed when we stand before our Creator on the final Day of Judgment.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

Your response to this issue shows us where your ethics lie. The same man that you defend as a homosexual is the same man who promotes these other evil and abhorrent acts.

Please, do not use God’s Word as your authority when you mishandle it. Yes, with all compassion, mercy and love we should accept and care for all people as God’s children, but ethically and biblically, we cannot accept or carry their sinful life. Just like we accept a murderer, but do not allow them to carry on murdering people. We accept Paedophiles with mercy when teaching them about Jesus, but do allow them to carry on in their sin.

Jesus did not mention homosexuality because he didn’t need to. This law that was set by God still stood. In regards to men with long hair, that was simply a cultural context at the time. Gay men at that time often wore long hair. In today’s biblical cultural terms, it is ethically wrong for men to dress like women because that is something that is associated with homosexuality.

Lucas King

According to p.134 (paperback) of Kinsey: Crimes and Consequences (Institute for Media Education, 2000), Kinsey “used 1888 boys, to time the speed of reaching orgasm. These boys were ages 5 months to adolescence, and were timed with a stop watch. He also used 147 girls. That’s 2035 children he willingly and knowingly had molested.

According to a witness (p. 135), “If you read those words, what he’s talking about is kids who are screaming. Kids who are protesting in every way they can the fact that their bodies or their persons are being violated.”

Yet, Kinsey decided these were responses to arousal and wanted the age of consent lowered. He claimed that children’s screams of pain and struggles to escape from their “partners” were evidence of the children’s pleasure.

Kendra Mallock, USA

Sorry, but we are not convinced that you are some Hebrew and Greek scholar who has finally come to set the record straight on this topic. The cults say the same thing: ‘the church has got it wrong all these centuries, but we are here to tell everyone the truth’. I don’t know of any respected Greek or Hebrew scholars who follow your tortured understanding of the texts.

And imagine if I wrote a book saying God really does not regard adultery as sinful, and all adulterers should feel just fine about themselves because God made them that way. I am sure 7000 adulterers would tell me how wonderful that is to hear. And some adulterers, on the verge of suicide, would probably reconsider because of such a book.

Since when is truth determined by numbers David? I don’t care if 100 percent said they loved your stuff. Zillions of people love the Koran or the Da Vinci Code – so what? The Bible informs us that the love of the truth will grow cold in the last days, and people will believe a lie.

And spare me the implication that somehow a firm biblical stance on this issue leads homosexuals to suicide. There are above average rates of suicide even in places where homosexuality is celebrated and glorified, such as San Francisco. It is not “homophobia” which is causing suicide, but a dangerous, high-risk lifestyle. Indeed, it is just as Paul says in Romans 1 – they know what they are doing is wrong, but continue to do it anyway. That will certainly lead to guilt and suicide.

I don’t want anyone to suicide, but I will not give homosexuals or anyone else false hopes which will lead them to a lost eternity by watering down the clear teaching of Scripture. Jesus loves everyone as they are, but loves them too much to leave them as they are. That is the good news homosexuals – and all of us sinners – desperately need to hear.

You are not offering homosexuals or anyone else any hope at all when you refuse to tell them biblical truth. You are deceiving people and leading them down a false path, one that certainly will lead to a lost eternity.

Sorry I am not buying your guilt-tripping either. People go to hell because they are sinners who refuse to acknowledge they are sinners in need of a saviour. And the classic example Paul uses of this very point is the sin of homosexuality in Romans 1.

No unrepentant homosexual will enter the Kingdom of heaven as Scripture clearly tells us. But they will enter into it when they agree with God about their sin, renounce it, seek forgiveness and God’s help to live a new transformed life.

I personally know of many former homosexuals who have been radically transformed by the power of God, and some have gone on to heterosexual marriage and family. Why are you trying to rob homosexuals of this wonderful good news David? Why keep them enslaved in their sin? Jesus came to set the captives free. You want to keep them in their chains.

Of course God loves homosexuals just as he loves all sinners. But God hates the sin that drives us away from God, whether that is homosexuality or heterosexual fornication or any other sin. If you mess around with that most basic of understandings of the biblical Gospel, then you have no gospel at all, except a false gospel.

Sadly and tragically, all you are doing is telling homosexuals what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. If you really love homosexuals, or anyone else, you will tell them the truth. Telling a person there is nothing wrong with homosexuality – or adultery or fornication or theft – is not the truth. Telling them they can be set free from their sinful addiction is the most loving thing we can do. It is time you started doing that.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

I wrote a paper called “What the Bible Actually Says About Homosexuality” and in the first month after it was published on the internet, 7700 sent in emails to the publisher and 7000 (90%) agreed with what I wrote. More importantly, in that one month 350 gays wrote to say they planned to commit suicide over this and decided against it. Many said in similar words “I never knew God loved me. I always thought He hated me.” This issue is THAT SERIOUS.

There is a movie called “Prayers for Bobby” that is based on the true story of a young gay man who committed suicide as the result of his famiy’s religious beliefs and how they tried to come to terms with it. It is available to watch on the web and is particularly moving. Gays are people…people who matter to God. Did Jesus judge them?

Bill, the lies from the Hebrew and Greek have got to stop. They really do. Gays commit suicide at 6 times the national average because we lie from scripture. How many of them are in cemetries right now because of what you have said? The thing that just makes my heart ache is how many of those have gone to a lost eternity without Christ as a result of what you have said? How many are contemplating suicide right now as a result of what you saying, no matter how much you feel you are justified in saying it? This is real, Bill.

Let both of us align our ministry with what Jesus wants to do with the gay community.

A sign of how spiritually mature I am is how much like the Lord Jesus I have become. If we are in any doubt about what to say on this topic, why don’t we just say what Jesus said?

Academic arguments on what the Scriptures actually say is very important, but the main thing that drives me is to reach the gay community for Christ and grow them as His disciples. Isn’t that what Jesus would do? What did Jesus say?

John 3:16,17 “For God so loved the world (gays) that he gave his only son that WHOSOEVER (gays included) believe in him, should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent not his son into the world (to gays) to condemn
the world (gays) but that the world (gays) through him might be saved.” That is what Jesus is on about. That is what matters to Him. Shouldn’t we be aligning all we say and do with what Jesus would say and do in the gay community if He were here in person?

In Him
David – Retired Baptist Pastor and yes I am a conservative evangelical.

I did of course answer his remarks. I spoke to them, saying that the argument from nature is only a small part of the biblical case against homosexuality. And the section from 1 Corinthians 11 – like all biblical passages – must be read in context. Paul is simply using the custom of short hair on men so prominent during his day as an analogy in his wider discussion of propriety in worship.

So the length of hair is not the main issue Paul is addressing here. And he of course offers no command here or anywhere against long hair on men, and may even have had long hair himself at one point (Acts 18:18). But Scripture – in both Testaments – is clear and unequivocal in its condemnation of homosexuality. So you and David are simply mixing apples and oranges here big time.

As to Genesis 38, the background of course is the long-standing and common practice of levirate marriage in the Ancient Near East. If brothers lived together, and a married one died without leaving any children, a surviving brother married the widow and helped provide offspring. That offspring took on the name of the deceased man, and eventually inherited the family estate. It was Onan’s refusal to carry out this levirate duty that displeased God. So this passage has nothing at all to do with incest.

And I have no idea what your red herring about stoning has to do with anything here.

Any other lame excuses that we can call your bluff on Aaron? At least you are not claiming to be a retired Baptist pastor, evangelical and conservative as well. But given that you started this thread, seeking to defend the indefensible (Kinsey’s perversion), I guess we can expect such misinformed and reckless comments from you and your buddies.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

But there is nothing conservative or evangelical about your comment whatsoever. You not only deny the clear teaching of the Bible, you also simply parrot the usual arguments from the homosexual lobby. It seems clear that you are merely trying to rationalise the homosexual lifestyle – perhaps your own or that of someone close by.

Your theological revision has been roundly answered time and time again. No objective reader of Gen. 18:20-19:29 can understand the sin to be anything other than homosexuality, which of course is confirmed by Jude 1:4-8, for example, which speaks of “sexual immorality and perversion” (NIV). The Greek is clearer: they “went after other flesh” (sarkos heteras). The sexual nature of the sin is clearly affirmed here, as in the Genesis text, and the parallel in Judges 19.

And any real Baptist pastor would know that continuity and discontinuity runs between the Testament. But one need not even appeal to the book of Leviticus to make the case against homosexuality. From Genesis to Revelation it is clear that God’s intention for human sexuality is heterosexual marriage.

And your juvenile understanding of the Greek leaves a lot to be desired. Joining koitos (sexual relations) with arsen (males) is a perfect term for what Paul is condemning here. And it is further amplified with malakoi in the Corinthian passage.

And Paul‘s argument against homosexuality fits in with the overall purpose for human sexuality which I have already mentioned. Going against nature is just one aspect of it.

You are of course quite wrong about the “whole point” of Romans 1 being 2:1. Romans 1-3 gives Paul’s account of how all men are guilty before God. In Romans 1 Paul uses homosexuality as the supreme example of those who rebel against their creator and their created place in God’s economy. In 2:1-4 Paul uses the moral argument, showing that as we judge otherwise, while doing the same thing, we further exhibit our guilt before God.

Scripture nowhere forbids me to judge homosexuals or any other sin. Indeed, I am told just the opposite. Paul clearly condemns it, and we are to do the same. Such people will not inherit the kingdom of God unless they turn from their sin and repent – just as a thief or an adulterer must do.

Sorry but your pro-homosexual massacre of Scripture simply will not do. It is the standard fare of the homosexual activists and the theological revisionists. I have written this up elsewhere, for example here: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2003/04/22/a-theological-dead-end/

But I have the feeling you have long ago allowed experience to judge theology and Scripture, instead of the other way around. That is a very dangerous place to be in, especially if one claims to be a Christian pastor.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch