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	<title>Comments on: Telling Lies for Atheism</title>
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	<description>Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day...</description>
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		<title>By: Lucas King</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-140010</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucas King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 08:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-140010</guid>
		<description>In response to Neil, It needs to be understood that the bible is quite clear when it comes to babies being killed. In the New Testament, only evil men such as Caesar killed hundreds of young children for his own evil desires. The only references to God “allowing” the destruction of families in the Old Testament; was due to the utter evil and filth that permeated these groups of people. This was rare that he did.

In all the cases of whole generations of families being destroyed under Gods command, it was so that evil would not prevail. Biblically, children are a blessing from God.

It also needs to be said that God’s morality cannot be brought into question, but our own humanistic ideas and corrupt minds. If God is real, and who the bible says he is, then he is all loving and just. Generally, the natural response to our own children is to punish them justly and with love according to their acts. God is the author and perfector of this concept.

Lastly, the latter is right, despicable acts are committed in the name of God, not by God. Don’t blame him for our own mistakes.

Lucas King</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Neil, It needs to be understood that the bible is quite clear when it comes to babies being killed. In the New Testament, only evil men such as Caesar killed hundreds of young children for his own evil desires. The only references to God “allowing” the destruction of families in the Old Testament; was due to the utter evil and filth that permeated these groups of people. This was rare that he did.</p>
<p>In all the cases of whole generations of families being destroyed under Gods command, it was so that evil would not prevail. Biblically, children are a blessing from God.</p>
<p>It also needs to be said that God’s morality cannot be brought into question, but our own humanistic ideas and corrupt minds. If God is real, and who the bible says he is, then he is all loving and just. Generally, the natural response to our own children is to punish them justly and with love according to their acts. God is the author and perfector of this concept.</p>
<p>Lastly, the latter is right, despicable acts are committed in the name of God, not by God. Don’t blame him for our own mistakes.</p>
<p>Lucas King</p>
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		<title>By: Simone Curran</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-138333</link>
		<dc:creator>Simone Curran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 12:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-138333</guid>
		<description>Richie, to be brought up a Catholic and to have a relationship with Christ are two separate things. I was brought up attending a Catholic Primary School and Catholic Secondary College and going to mass, but it wasn’t until I had an encounter with Jesus that my life totally changed and I started to develop a personal relationship with Jesus and a biblical worldview. You say that you know a “fair bit about Christianity as it happens” – Christianity is about knowing Jesus Christ – do you know Him? 

Your comment on “unbaptized babies spending eternity in limbo in cases of infant mortality” has no basis in Scripture and hence is untrue. Where is your source for this information? Is it reliable? Is it credible?

Simone Curran</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richie, to be brought up a Catholic and to have a relationship with Christ are two separate things. I was brought up attending a Catholic Primary School and Catholic Secondary College and going to mass, but it wasn’t until I had an encounter with Jesus that my life totally changed and I started to develop a personal relationship with Jesus and a biblical worldview. You say that you know a “fair bit about Christianity as it happens” – Christianity is about knowing Jesus Christ – do you know Him? </p>
<p>Your comment on “unbaptized babies spending eternity in limbo in cases of infant mortality” has no basis in Scripture and hence is untrue. Where is your source for this information? Is it reliable? Is it credible?</p>
<p>Simone Curran</p>
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		<title>By: Nino Suraci</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-138277</link>
		<dc:creator>Nino Suraci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 02:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-138277</guid>
		<description>Hi Richie, I presumed you Catholic background from your first post. The Catholic Church un-officially adopted the concept of “limbo” in the middle ages and has recently formally abolished it. It was never a Biblical teaching so you can stop blaming the God that you don’t believe in for that one. As I suggested on my previous post to you, research the Bible if you are going to attack it, so that your ignorance may not be revealed. 
Secondly, for your information, I became a follower of Jesus Christ at the age of 34 (I say a follower of Jesus as opposed to a religious person committed to an institutional Church), so I had a thorough exposure to the made up lie of macro evolution. Subsequent to my realisation that Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life, I undertook formal studies which incorporated a thorough critique of the theory of evolution. 
The conclusion is that the theory of macro evolution is full of problems, and it undergirds a humanist religion that places man at the centre of the universe. 
Furthermore, from my experience, most people who claim to be evolutionists have never really examined the evidence for themselves. Have you? 
Richie, I hope that you are earnestly seeking truth, because if you are then I know that it will eventually lead you not to religion but to Him who is absolute truth, Jesus Christ. 
Nino Suraci</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Richie, I presumed you Catholic background from your first post. The Catholic Church un-officially adopted the concept of “limbo” in the middle ages and has recently formally abolished it. It was never a Biblical teaching so you can stop blaming the God that you don’t believe in for that one. As I suggested on my previous post to you, research the Bible if you are going to attack it, so that your ignorance may not be revealed.<br />
Secondly, for your information, I became a follower of Jesus Christ at the age of 34 (I say a follower of Jesus as opposed to a religious person committed to an institutional Church), so I had a thorough exposure to the made up lie of macro evolution. Subsequent to my realisation that Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life, I undertook formal studies which incorporated a thorough critique of the theory of evolution.<br />
The conclusion is that the theory of macro evolution is full of problems, and it undergirds a humanist religion that places man at the centre of the universe.<br />
Furthermore, from my experience, most people who claim to be evolutionists have never really examined the evidence for themselves. Have you?<br />
Richie, I hope that you are earnestly seeking truth, because if you are then I know that it will eventually lead you not to religion but to Him who is absolute truth, Jesus Christ.<br />
Nino Suraci</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Rabich</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-138270</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Rabich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 00:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-138270</guid>
		<description>Richie,

In case you&#039;re wondering and others also need it spelled out, yes indeed, you believe some things about the Bible which are not true, which is as good as &quot;making (it) up&quot;.  And you just use the &quot;better things to do&quot; line as a pathetic excuse for your ignorance and intellectual laziness.  It may work amongst your peers and other atheists but not here.  I&#039;m pretty sure such sentiments are just seen as ironic here - you claim rational thought is in your corner, but all you do is display the direct opposite for all to see.  It&#039;s lame.  I hope deep down you know you can do a lot better.  &lt;i&gt;Someone displaying real love for knowledge (ie. rationality) would leap at the opportunity to do some research.&lt;/i&gt;

Why is your time so much more valuable that anybody else&#039;s? Why should anybody bother spending their precious time arguing with you if you can&#039;t even make a tiny effort to be accurate?  And what do you have to gain by sticking to a lie, anyway?  Isn&#039;t it just better and easier to concede the point and move on?  Or are you more interested in being &#039;right&#039; about everything and justifying yourself than you are in perhaps having some light illuminated on a subject you are in darkness about?  As far as I can tell, no regular on this blog claims to have perfect knowledge or something like that, but at least we generally agree on how to get closer to truth this day than we were the day before.  How about you?

This isn&#039;t a game, you know, this concerns your future life - forever.  What other issue in your life has the potential to be eternally regretful if you get it wrong?  Bill is right, the stakes could not be higher.

Mark Rabich</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richie,</p>
<p>In case you&#8217;re wondering and others also need it spelled out, yes indeed, you believe some things about the Bible which are not true, which is as good as &#8220;making (it) up&#8221;.  And you just use the &#8220;better things to do&#8221; line as a pathetic excuse for your ignorance and intellectual laziness.  It may work amongst your peers and other atheists but not here.  I&#8217;m pretty sure such sentiments are just seen as ironic here &#8211; you claim rational thought is in your corner, but all you do is display the direct opposite for all to see.  It&#8217;s lame.  I hope deep down you know you can do a lot better.  <i>Someone displaying real love for knowledge (ie. rationality) would leap at the opportunity to do some research.</i></p>
<p>Why is your time so much more valuable that anybody else&#8217;s? Why should anybody bother spending their precious time arguing with you if you can&#8217;t even make a tiny effort to be accurate?  And what do you have to gain by sticking to a lie, anyway?  Isn&#8217;t it just better and easier to concede the point and move on?  Or are you more interested in being &#8216;right&#8217; about everything and justifying yourself than you are in perhaps having some light illuminated on a subject you are in darkness about?  As far as I can tell, no regular on this blog claims to have perfect knowledge or something like that, but at least we generally agree on how to get closer to truth this day than we were the day before.  How about you?</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t a game, you know, this concerns your future life &#8211; forever.  What other issue in your life has the potential to be eternally regretful if you get it wrong?  Bill is right, the stakes could not be higher.</p>
<p>Mark Rabich</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-138142</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 03:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-138142</guid>
		<description>Thanks Richie

“I do know a fair bit about Christianity as it happens.” And yet you cannot even answer the simplest of questions. This is so very typical of atheists: they pontificate on, and attack, a set of beliefs which in fact they haven’t the slightest idea about. 

Based on your all-so-typical comments, let me lay out for all to see the atheist modus operandi:

1. Claim that only atheists are rational and intelligent.
2. Pretend to be an expert on what you are attacking.
3. When challenged to come up with the goods, change the subject or attack the messenger.
4. Think that you have just won the argument.

Thank you for once again demonstrating the intellectual poverty of atheism. It’s all bluster and bluff. It would be terribly funny if it weren’t so serious.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Richie</p>
<p>“I do know a fair bit about Christianity as it happens.” And yet you cannot even answer the simplest of questions. This is so very typical of atheists: they pontificate on, and attack, a set of beliefs which in fact they haven’t the slightest idea about. </p>
<p>Based on your all-so-typical comments, let me lay out for all to see the atheist modus operandi:</p>
<p>1. Claim that only atheists are rational and intelligent.<br />
2. Pretend to be an expert on what you are attacking.<br />
3. When challenged to come up with the goods, change the subject or attack the messenger.<br />
4. Think that you have just won the argument.</p>
<p>Thank you for once again demonstrating the intellectual poverty of atheism. It’s all bluster and bluff. It would be terribly funny if it weren’t so serious.</p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: Richie Craze</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-138030</link>
		<dc:creator>Richie Craze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 10:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-138030</guid>
		<description>So are you seriously suggesting I&#039;m making up the thological idea of &quot;Limbo&quot;? Bill, I&#039;ve better things to do than to trawl through the bible looking for quotes for you. There&#039;s plenty of nasty stuff in both. The whole concept of atonement for original sin is repellent enough (as well as nonsense as we now know), as is eternal damnation, which the NT introduces. 

Nino, if you think evolution is a lie then I would suggest you are the ignorant one, not me. I was brought up a Catholic so I do know a fair bit about Christianity as it happens. These ad hominem attacks are very common amongst Christians posting on websites, I&#039;ve noticed.

Richie Craze, UK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So are you seriously suggesting I&#8217;m making up the thological idea of &#8220;Limbo&#8221;? Bill, I&#8217;ve better things to do than to trawl through the bible looking for quotes for you. There&#8217;s plenty of nasty stuff in both. The whole concept of atonement for original sin is repellent enough (as well as nonsense as we now know), as is eternal damnation, which the NT introduces. </p>
<p>Nino, if you think evolution is a lie then I would suggest you are the ignorant one, not me. I was brought up a Catholic so I do know a fair bit about Christianity as it happens. These ad hominem attacks are very common amongst Christians posting on websites, I&#8217;ve noticed.</p>
<p>Richie Craze, UK</p>
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		<title>By: Nino Suraci</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-137489</link>
		<dc:creator>Nino Suraci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 13:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-137489</guid>
		<description>Hi Richie, I reconmend that you actually do some real research into what the Bible teaches and then come back and make an informed comment. There are too many ignorant people in the world as it is. Also what Bible beleiving Christians accept as truth has not changed in two thousand years. Making things up as they go along is a proven &quot;modus operandi&quot; of those peddling the evolutionary lie. Dawkins has a doctorate in delusive story telling, jump on his site and watch the master at work.

Nino Suraci</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Richie, I reconmend that you actually do some real research into what the Bible teaches and then come back and make an informed comment. There are too many ignorant people in the world as it is. Also what Bible beleiving Christians accept as truth has not changed in two thousand years. Making things up as they go along is a proven &#8220;modus operandi&#8221; of those peddling the evolutionary lie. Dawkins has a doctorate in delusive story telling, jump on his site and watch the master at work.</p>
<p>Nino Suraci</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-137388</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 00:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-137388</guid>
		<description>Thanks Richie

Because there is both continuity and discontinuity between the Testaments, as I already said.

And please inform us all where exactly in the New Testament we find anything about “unbaptized babies spending eternity in limbo”. In fact, please show us anywhere in the 66 books of the Bible where we find this.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Richie</p>
<p>Because there is both continuity and discontinuity between the Testaments, as I already said.</p>
<p>And please inform us all where exactly in the New Testament we find anything about “unbaptized babies spending eternity in limbo”. In fact, please show us anywhere in the 66 books of the Bible where we find this.</p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: Richie Craze</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-137337</link>
		<dc:creator>Richie Craze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 13:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-137337</guid>
		<description>Bill: &quot;I again ask, where does Jesus or the NT command infant sacrifice?&quot;

If the God of the NT is the same as the OT then why do you need a distinction?

Also, how about the notion of unbaptized babies spending eternity in limbo in cases of infant mortality? Obviously, no suffering for the babies themselves but there&#039;s be untold anguish caused to brainwashed parents who have lost children in infancy thanks to this evil dogma. 

Which, in religion&#039;s style of making things up as they go along, has now been overturned.

Richie Craze</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill: &#8220;I again ask, where does Jesus or the NT command infant sacrifice?&#8221;</p>
<p>If the God of the NT is the same as the OT then why do you need a distinction?</p>
<p>Also, how about the notion of unbaptized babies spending eternity in limbo in cases of infant mortality? Obviously, no suffering for the babies themselves but there&#8217;s be untold anguish caused to brainwashed parents who have lost children in infancy thanks to this evil dogma. </p>
<p>Which, in religion&#8217;s style of making things up as they go along, has now been overturned.</p>
<p>Richie Craze</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Rabich</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/04/29/telling-lies-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-136854</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Rabich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 06:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1457#comment-136854</guid>
		<description>Indeed, Bill, I&#039;m wondering why that collection of selfish genes we call Richard Dawkins would bother to apologize.  Or why that collection of blind watchmaker parts called Ben Green would care about &quot;morality discussion(s)&quot; at all...

It &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; tiresome to hear the same mistakes over and over again.  Why do people claim rationality and yet the only guaranteed consistency they display is that gaping dichotomy between what they say and how they live?  If you say that the world and universe is just about molecules, then it really doesn&#039;t matter if you thieve that item from the shop, or deliberately knock someone over with your car, or exterminate a race of people.  Arguments about the promotion of civilization or &quot;relative peace&quot; (from Arthur) are smokescreens because, clearly, the strong &lt;i&gt;will still survive&lt;/i&gt; anyway.  And what would it matter anyway if the whole human race died out and the insects took over?  &lt;i&gt;But nobody lives like that.&lt;/i&gt;  So this is clearly about rejecting God &lt;i&gt;first&lt;/i&gt; because of personal and/or selfish reasons and then finding so-called &#039;rational&#039; arguments later and claiming them as the motivation.

If you played a sport where the goalposts and rules were constantly shifted to suit your opponents whims you would quickly find another pastime.  Hearing atheists claim rational superiority and yet trying to follow their logic is very much like that.  They love to nitpick about Christianity but almost never ask the deep and hard questions about their own beliefs, &lt;i&gt;when often the very reason people have arrived at God&#039;s feet is because they have exhausted all other options.&lt;/i&gt;  Are atheists afraid that they might find God and therefore lack sincerity in their pursuit to find out the truth?  Jesus said &quot;Seek and you will find.&quot;  In &lt;i&gt;Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed&lt;/i&gt; Ben Stein asks Dawkins what he would say to God if, after he dies, he discovers that God is real.  Dawkins claimed something along the lines that God should&#039;ve made himself more obvious, an answer that sounds absurd to most Christians, who would likely say about that, &quot;Richard, you clearly weren&#039;t looking very hard, because we found Him when we looked for Him.&quot;  In this hypothetical situation I also would say this - &quot;Were you looking to find Him on His terms, or your own?  Because He is &lt;i&gt;God&lt;/i&gt; and He knows if you were faking it.  A proud man will not find God.&quot;

Matthew 7:7-11
Romans 1:20
James 4:10
Proverbs 3:34

Mark Rabich</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, Bill, I&#8217;m wondering why that collection of selfish genes we call Richard Dawkins would bother to apologize.  Or why that collection of blind watchmaker parts called Ben Green would care about &#8220;morality discussion(s)&#8221; at all&#8230;</p>
<p>It <i>is</i> tiresome to hear the same mistakes over and over again.  Why do people claim rationality and yet the only guaranteed consistency they display is that gaping dichotomy between what they say and how they live?  If you say that the world and universe is just about molecules, then it really doesn&#8217;t matter if you thieve that item from the shop, or deliberately knock someone over with your car, or exterminate a race of people.  Arguments about the promotion of civilization or &#8220;relative peace&#8221; (from Arthur) are smokescreens because, clearly, the strong <i>will still survive</i> anyway.  And what would it matter anyway if the whole human race died out and the insects took over?  <i>But nobody lives like that.</i>  So this is clearly about rejecting God <i>first</i> because of personal and/or selfish reasons and then finding so-called &#8216;rational&#8217; arguments later and claiming them as the motivation.</p>
<p>If you played a sport where the goalposts and rules were constantly shifted to suit your opponents whims you would quickly find another pastime.  Hearing atheists claim rational superiority and yet trying to follow their logic is very much like that.  They love to nitpick about Christianity but almost never ask the deep and hard questions about their own beliefs, <i>when often the very reason people have arrived at God&#8217;s feet is because they have exhausted all other options.</i>  Are atheists afraid that they might find God and therefore lack sincerity in their pursuit to find out the truth?  Jesus said &#8220;Seek and you will find.&#8221;  In <i>Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed</i> Ben Stein asks Dawkins what he would say to God if, after he dies, he discovers that God is real.  Dawkins claimed something along the lines that God should&#8217;ve made himself more obvious, an answer that sounds absurd to most Christians, who would likely say about that, &#8220;Richard, you clearly weren&#8217;t looking very hard, because we found Him when we looked for Him.&#8221;  In this hypothetical situation I also would say this &#8211; &#8220;Were you looking to find Him on His terms, or your own?  Because He is <i>God</i> and He knows if you were faking it.  A proud man will not find God.&#8221;</p>
<p>Matthew 7:7-11<br />
Romans 1:20<br />
James 4:10<br />
Proverbs 3:34</p>
<p>Mark Rabich</p>
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