Comments on: Same-Sex Divorce http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:51:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Jonathan Sarfati http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-133837 Jonathan Sarfati Sat, 11 Apr 2009 02:29:19 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-133837 How disgraceful that <a href="http://kevinmccullough.townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2006/11/19/why_is_obamas_evil_in_rick_warrens_pulpit?page=2" rel="nofollow">Commissar Obamov's purpose-driven useful idiot</a>, <a href="http://townhall.com/Columnists/SandyRios/2009/04/10/rick_warren%e2%80%99s_holy_week_crisis?page=full&comments=true" rel="nofollow">Rick Warren has apologised for his opposition to gay "marriage"</a>. As usual with unequal yoking, such as Warren's buddying with Obamov, it was not Obamov who moved a micron towards a Christian position, but Warren who shifted toward's Obamov's radically christophobic view. Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane How disgraceful that Commissar Obamov’s purpose-driven useful idiot, Rick Warren has apologised for his opposition to gay “marriage”. As usual with unequal yoking, such as Warren’s buddying with Obamov, it was not Obamov who moved a micron towards a Christian position, but Warren who shifted toward’s Obamov’s radically christophobic view.
Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-128358 david skinner Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:03:54 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-128358 Hi, Mark, what we all need to understand, let alone homosexuals who have their own bondage, is the wonderful promise of Jesus Christ when he said in John 8:31: "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." What truth? True about our old natures which will be with us until we die; about the devil who tempts us and then when we are down accuses us;and about Father God and all that he has done for us in Jesus Christ, is doing for us though the Holy Spirit and will do for us in the future. The truth that this life has to be lived through faith and not through sight or emotions. Only the truth, will set Katrina Fox and all of us free. David Skinner, UK Hi, Mark, what we all need to understand, let alone homosexuals who have their own bondage, is the wonderful promise of Jesus Christ when he said in John 8:31: “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

What truth? True about our old natures which will be with us until we die; about the devil who tempts us and then when we are down accuses us;and about Father God and all that he has done for us in Jesus Christ, is doing for us though the Holy Spirit and will do for us in the future.

The truth that this life has to be lived through faith and not through sight or emotions.

Only the truth, will set Katrina Fox and all of us free.

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: Mark Rabich http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-128292 Mark Rabich Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:00:13 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-128292 Well, for an exercise in typical fatalistic political correct head-in-sand mocking defiance, you could hardly get better than this: http://www.theage.com.au/news/lifeandstyle/lifematters/christian-cure-for-homosexuality/2009/02/27/1235237879839.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2 Why do people have such a problem with separating their behaviour with their physical make-up? No matter what Katrina Fox claims about herself, if she as a woman is still of child-bearing capability, only sex with a man can validate the <i>complete</i> function of her sexuality, as un-PC it is to say that. Her own body testifies against her. Long-standing habits may be hard to break, especially when they are connected to one of the deepest parts of our psyche, but our physical makeup strongly testifies against its abuse in the form of homosexual unions. You may as well step off a cliff in defiance of gravity. If only the consequences of homosexuality were more immediate, then maybe people might acknowledge the reality of them. But of course these days, if it isn't immediate, it isn't real. I've written a letter, but I'm not holding my breath... Mark Rabich Well, for an exercise in typical fatalistic political correct head-in-sand mocking defiance, you could hardly get better than this:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/lifeandstyle/lifematters/christian-cure-for-homosexuality/2009/02/27/1235237879839.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

Why do people have such a problem with separating their behaviour with their physical make-up? No matter what Katrina Fox claims about herself, if she as a woman is still of child-bearing capability, only sex with a man can validate the complete function of her sexuality, as un-PC it is to say that. Her own body testifies against her. Long-standing habits may be hard to break, especially when they are connected to one of the deepest parts of our psyche, but our physical makeup strongly testifies against its abuse in the form of homosexual unions. You may as well step off a cliff in defiance of gravity. If only the consequences of homosexuality were more immediate, then maybe people might acknowledge the reality of them. But of course these days, if it isn’t immediate, it isn’t real.

I’ve written a letter, but I’m not holding my breath…

Mark Rabich

]]> By: Ewan http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-128234 Ewan Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:35:50 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-128234 David is right to point out that the rot set in when society and government began to normalise and reward heterosexual cohabitation or what should more rightly be called 'living in sin'. A lot of churches would still classify homosexuality as a sin, but not too many seem prepared to challenge the trend for people to live together. Ewan McDonald. David is right to point out that the rot set in when society and government began to normalise and reward heterosexual cohabitation or what should more rightly be called ‘living in sin’. A lot of churches would still classify homosexuality as a sin, but not too many seem prepared to challenge the trend for people to live together.

Ewan McDonald.

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-128219 david skinner Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:30:39 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-128219 Eugene, I think I am beginning to understand you, let alone homosexuals! I maybe wrong but it seems to me that you are suggesting that as Christians we already possess this brand new identity and that in many respects we are already in heaven and that there is no more changing to be done. We have arrived; we are perfect. That is not what the Bible says: it talks about the Holy Spirit putting His seal on us as a down payment, a guarantee towards our inheritance that is not yet. As for your suggestion that the good news is nothing more than letting people know that God loves them, this is not born out by accounts in the book of Acts, where people suddenly became aware of their sinfulness and cried out for salvation, not salvation from this world but salvation from the wrath of God. David Skinner, UK Eugene, I think I am beginning to understand you, let alone homosexuals! I maybe wrong but it seems to me that you are suggesting that as Christians we already possess this brand new identity and that in many respects we are already in heaven and that there is no more changing to be done. We have arrived; we are perfect. That is not what the Bible says: it talks about the Holy Spirit putting His seal on us as a down payment, a guarantee towards our inheritance that is not yet.

As for your suggestion that the good news is nothing more than letting people know that God loves them, this is not born out by accounts in the book of Acts, where people suddenly became aware of their sinfulness and cried out for salvation, not salvation from this world but salvation from the wrath of God.

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-128216 david skinner Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:11:52 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-128216 John FG McMahon, thank you for yet another distinction between Islam and Christianity. I am sure also that you would agree that one of the main reasons that homosexuality is infecting our society is that we have for so long become comfortable with civil partnerships or people just living together. What we used to call “living in sin” has opened the flood gates not only to homosexuality but polygamy, polyamory, incest, bestiality, paedophilia. and necrophilia. Until we regain the purpose of marriage as enunciated in the Bible which is to create the family, or become a part of an existing family, we haven’t a leg to stand on. David Skinner, UK John FG McMahon, thank you for yet another distinction between Islam and Christianity.
I am sure also that you would agree that one of the main reasons that homosexuality is infecting our society is that we have for so long become comfortable with civil partnerships or people just living together. What we used to call “living in sin” has opened the flood gates not only to homosexuality but polygamy, polyamory, incest, bestiality, paedophilia. and necrophilia. Until we regain the purpose of marriage as enunciated in the Bible which is to create the family, or become a part of an existing family, we haven’t a leg to stand on.

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-128214 david skinner Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:53:52 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-128214 http://greatchristianlife.com/my-rebuttal-to-a-book-review-of-grace-walk-by-steve-mcvey David Skinner, UK http://greatchristianlife.com/my-rebuttal-to-a-book-review-of-grace-walk-by-steve-mcvey
David Skinner, UK

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-128213 david skinner Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:51:31 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-128213 People talk about the faithfulness demonstrated by homosexual couples one towards the other. Isn’t it marvellous they say and yet they fail to realise that by engaging in such acts that they are being unfaithful to God’s created order. "How can anyone debate the practice of two men using their respective waste passages as a playground in order that it may become legally acceptable is totally beyond my understanding." - Nicholas Fairbairn, MP for Fife, in the House of Commons, when the legislation regarding homosexual practice was first debated. So what about the conditions and imperatives placed on us, the relatives, friends, the church and the community, with regard to a gay wedding? How are we supposed to respond? Do we have responsibilities? Should the church door be wide open to all? Jesus said in Matthew 7:13, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” The book of Ephesians has for may years been held up as a book about church unity but my reading of it is that it is increasingly about warfare; indeed, it ends with some of the most vivid instructions on how to wage it. Church unity is not the same as the universalist's mantras "inclusion and diversity." The letter to the Ephesians, as a consequence, orders the church to enforce this selection and to exclude those within the church fellowship who are clearly not called, or who behave as such, until as such time as they are brought to repentance. Although Jesus Christ is the final judge, there is a burden of responsibility laid upon us all. The universal church does have responsibilities in making sure that there is a clear distinction between the Christian and all others. Like an invading and infiltrating army we have to be in society but not of it. Above all, like troops, in Normandy, during D-Day, engaged in fierce hand to hand fighting, we need to recognise friend from foe. Paul, in writing to the Ephesians clearly describes how the Christian must separate themselves from gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. He describes those outside the family of God as: “Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more." Further on he said: “But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity...because these are improper for God's holy people...have nothing to do with the fruitless seeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret…Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.” Nothing could be more unequivocal than 1 Corinthians 5:12-13: "It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, 'You must remove the evil person from among you'.” Romans 16:17: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people." http://crossroad.to/HisWord/verses/topics/judge.htm http://www.alittleleaven.com/doesnt-the-bible-say-not-.html As for Steve Mcvey, that explains everything Eugene. David Skinner, UK People talk about the faithfulness demonstrated by homosexual couples one towards the other. Isn’t it marvellous they say and yet they fail to realise that by engaging in such acts that they are being unfaithful to God’s created order. “How can anyone debate the practice of two men using their respective waste passages as a playground in order that it may become legally acceptable is totally beyond my understanding.” – Nicholas Fairbairn, MP for Fife, in the House of Commons, when the legislation regarding homosexual practice was first debated.

So what about the conditions and imperatives placed on us, the relatives, friends, the church and the community, with regard to a gay wedding? How are we supposed to respond? Do we have responsibilities? Should the church door be wide open to all?

Jesus said in Matthew 7:13, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it”

The book of Ephesians has for may years been held up as a book about church unity but my reading of it is that it is increasingly about warfare; indeed, it ends with some of the most vivid instructions on how to wage it. Church unity is not the same as the universalist’s mantras “inclusion and diversity.” The letter to the Ephesians, as a consequence, orders the church to enforce this selection and to exclude those within the church fellowship who are clearly not called, or who behave as such, until as such time as they are brought to repentance.

Although Jesus Christ is the final judge, there is a burden of responsibility laid upon us all. The universal church does have responsibilities in making sure that there is a clear distinction between the Christian and all others. Like an invading and infiltrating army we have to be in society but not of it. Above all, like troops, in Normandy, during D-Day, engaged in fierce hand to hand fighting, we need to recognise friend from foe.

Paul, in writing to the Ephesians clearly describes how the Christian must separate themselves from gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. He describes those outside the family of God as: “Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.” Further on he said:

“But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity…because these are improper for God’s holy people…have nothing to do with the fruitless seeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret…Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.”

Nothing could be more unequivocal than 1 Corinthians 5:12-13: “It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, ‘You must remove the evil person from among you’.”

Romans 16:17: “I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.”

http://crossroad.to/HisWord/verses/topics/judge.htm
http://www.alittleleaven.com/doesnt-the-bible-say-not-.html

As for Steve Mcvey, that explains everything Eugene.

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: eugene moreau http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-128209 eugene moreau Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:26:41 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-128209 Hullo Garth. I am not sure if in your offer of help you are being a smart alec or not. Are you intimating that I might be a sort of closet gay? If you are, sorry to disappoint you. I've been married to the same woman for 28 years, have three adult sons and intend to say married to her til I kick the bucket. Or are you intimating I need help because I am not a Bill sycophant? Poor chap I must be. If it's a genuine offer of help, thanks but no thanks. What you have written suggests you have not understood what I have said. Life in Christ is not only if our 'barriers' are removed, otherwise we'd all be up the creek - do you mean get your life right and then God will work in your life - (if that's what you are saying, and by your second paragraph you dont seem to be saying that) - that is a denial of reality. I am not convinced of the destruction that a homosexual can bring upon him or herself by living that life??? I cannot see how you got that impression. I am also convinced that moral fingerpointing, wielding Scripture like a moral baton, pointing out this wrong and that does not do the work of the Spirit. Paul's great discussion of the Law indicates this. We may call pointing out people's moral failures and abominations a prophetic act but if Christ is not preached -as Paul says in his resolve to preach nothing but Christ and Him crucified - then all we do is present a worldview, another philosophy - one of umpteen in the marketplace of ideas, however right we are, and of course we are right because we wield the Word (Scripture I mean not the Word as in John 1). We come across as society's judge, and sometimes jury, rather than bearers of the greatest message of all. The message is not given. I think Bill has taken up the Weltanschauung approach to the use of Scripture and so I also think he is essentially a political person, at least in the website. The sorts of things on the website in fact remind of right wing American outfits like the Institute for Religion and Democracy. I am not sure how you figure I am trying to be acceptable to everyone?? I wouldnt be on here would I if that were so. I seem to be a rarity on Bill's site. My comment on identity was not ot excuse anybody but a recogniton of a need for understanding of what goes on in people. If, for the gay, homosexual behaviour and being a homosexual are of the same parcel then we know something, how to pray for one thing as He is the true identity changer, a whole new one in fact, better than anything that we could possibly have imagined. Isnt that what we want, people to know Him? In other words, yes we want repentance that is true metanoia a whole new understanding. I have not heard of any instance of public recriminations leading someone to this point. Maybe you have. Eugene Moreau Hullo Garth. I am not sure if in your offer of help you are being a smart alec or not. Are you intimating that I might be a sort of closet gay? If you are, sorry to disappoint you. I’ve been married to the same woman for 28 years, have three adult sons and intend to say married to her til I kick the bucket. Or are you intimating I need help because I am not a Bill sycophant? Poor chap I must be.
If it’s a genuine offer of help, thanks but no thanks. What you have written suggests you have not understood what I have said.
Life in Christ is not only if our ‘barriers’ are removed, otherwise we’d all be up the creek – do you mean get your life right and then God will work in your life – (if that’s what you are saying, and by your second paragraph you dont seem to be saying that) – that is a denial of reality. I am not convinced of the destruction that a homosexual can bring upon him or herself by living that life??? I cannot see how you got that impression. I am also convinced that moral fingerpointing, wielding Scripture like a moral baton, pointing out this wrong and that does not do the work of the Spirit. Paul’s great discussion of the Law indicates this. We may call pointing out people’s moral failures and abominations a prophetic act but if Christ is not preached -as Paul says in his resolve to preach nothing but Christ and Him crucified – then all we do is present a worldview, another philosophy – one of umpteen in the marketplace of ideas, however right we are, and of course we are right because we wield the Word (Scripture I mean not the Word as in John 1). We come across as society’s judge, and sometimes jury, rather than bearers of the greatest message of all. The message is not given.
I think Bill has taken up the Weltanschauung approach to the use of Scripture and so I also think he is essentially a political person, at least in the website. The sorts of things on the website in fact remind of right wing American outfits like the Institute for Religion and Democracy.
I am not sure how you figure I am trying to be acceptable to everyone?? I wouldnt be on here would I if that were so. I seem to be a rarity on Bill’s site.
My comment on identity was not ot excuse anybody but a recogniton of a need for understanding of what goes on in people. If, for the gay, homosexual behaviour and being a homosexual are of the same parcel then we know something, how to pray for one thing as He is the true identity changer, a whole new one in fact, better than anything that we could possibly have imagined. Isnt that what we want, people to know Him? In other words, yes we want repentance that is true metanoia a whole new understanding. I have not heard of any instance of public recriminations leading someone to this point. Maybe you have.
Eugene Moreau

]]> By: Teresa http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/24/same-sex-divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-128201 Teresa Thu, 26 Feb 2009 07:13:58 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1224#comment-128201 Thanks everyone, I have a clear answer to my question. As always, the media is so brutally biased, that it is difficult to know what is going on. Teresa Binder Thanks everyone, I have a clear answer to my question. As always, the media is so brutally biased, that it is difficult to know what is going on.
Teresa Binder

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