Comments on: A review of The Truth of the Cross. By R.C. Sproul. http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:31:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-139612 Bill Muehlenberg Sun, 24 May 2009 05:08:48 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-139612 Many thanks Olivia Glad I was of some help here. Blessings, Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Many thanks Olivia

Glad I was of some help here. Blessings,

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Olivia T. http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-139608 Olivia T. Sun, 24 May 2009 04:53:21 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-139608 Dear Bill, Thank you for reviewing this book, without which I wouldn't have known about it. I bought it shortly after I read your review and have already read it. It definitely puts Jesus' crucifixion into perspective, and prompted many questions which I'm seeking answers for (already found some). I'm grateful for this book, it's something I'll be lending to my Christian friends. I've also become interested in reading more weightier discussions on the crucifixion, and will be looking for those. Thanks for your review! Olivia Tan, San Diego, USA Dear Bill,

Thank you for reviewing this book, without which I wouldn’t have known about it. I bought it shortly after I read your review and have already read it. It definitely puts Jesus’ crucifixion into perspective, and prompted many questions which I’m seeking answers for (already found some). I’m grateful for this book, it’s something I’ll be lending to my Christian friends. I’ve also become interested in reading more weightier discussions on the crucifixion, and will be looking for those.
Thanks for your review!

Olivia Tan, San Diego, USA

]]> By: David McAllan http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-128066 David McAllan Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:27:47 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-128066 I think more is happening here for Eugene than what has been touched on so far. I sense he is caught up in the post-modern epistemology. The reader has become the authority rather than the text. Just because there is much disagreement in the Christian church over doctrine, it does not prove it is unimportant, nor does it prove that the "real" truth cannot be found. What it means is that we make the text the authority and in the words of Carson, gain distanciation from the text. In other words, distance ourselves from our bias' and preconceived leanings and enter the biblical world to understand what was said according to their day and in it's context. It is true that we can fail in our understanding of the text, but as we study and seek out what the author meant at that time, then we will gain greater understanding and be more faithful in our interpretations. This has been labeled the "hermeneutical spiral". Deconstructionism has caused great distrust in authorial intention and for Christians to ever have a hope at grasping the true revelation of God as recorded by Scripture, one much identify and acknowledge this influence over them and this goes not just for Eugene but for all of us. David McAllan I think more is happening here for Eugene than what has been touched on so far. I sense he is caught up in the post-modern epistemology. The reader has become the authority rather than the text. Just because there is much disagreement in the Christian church over doctrine, it does not prove it is unimportant, nor does it prove that the “real” truth cannot be found. What it means is that we make the text the authority and in the words of Carson, gain distanciation from the text. In other words, distance ourselves from our bias’ and preconceived leanings and enter the biblical world to understand what was said according to their day and in it’s context. It is true that we can fail in our understanding of the text, but as we study and seek out what the author meant at that time, then we will gain greater understanding and be more faithful in our interpretations. This has been labeled the “hermeneutical spiral”. Deconstructionism has caused great distrust in authorial intention and for Christians to ever have a hope at grasping the true revelation of God as recorded by Scripture, one much identify and acknowledge this influence over them and this goes not just for Eugene but for all of us.
David McAllan

]]> By: John Angelico http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-128021 John Angelico Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:48:01 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-128021 Umm, Eugene, sorry this is a lot later than various other replies. You said: "Thanks Bill. Nicely avoided everything I actually said. I listened to the sermon by Jim Graham as recommended by David Skinner. It was very enjoyable." I notice that you have clearly avoided responding to Bill's challenge to read the book so as to make informed comments. Unfortunately, that puts you into the "you know naught of what you speak" category, which will lead you to a billabong, not to the mainstream. John Angelico Umm, Eugene, sorry this is a lot later than various other replies. You said:
“Thanks Bill. Nicely avoided everything I actually said.
I listened to the sermon by Jim Graham as recommended by David Skinner. It was very enjoyable.”

I notice that you have clearly avoided responding to Bill’s challenge to read the book so as to make informed comments.

Unfortunately, that puts you into the “you know naught of what you speak” category, which will lead you to a billabong, not to the mainstream.

John Angelico

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-128000 Bill Muehlenberg Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:35:52 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-128000 Thanks again Eugene I will leave it to others to decide if I “avoided everything” you said. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks again Eugene

I will leave it to others to decide if I “avoided everything” you said.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-127998 david skinner Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:30:27 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-127998 Eugene, Praise God that you listened to this faithful Bible expositor. May I now, however, urge you to listen to a sermon he gave a fortnight before that one? http://www.goldhill.org/Media/Player.aspx?media_id=24960&file_id=27277 David Skinner, UK Eugene, Praise God that you listened to this faithful Bible expositor. May I now, however, urge you to listen to a sermon he gave a fortnight before that one? http://www.goldhill.org/Media/Player.aspx?media_id=24960&file_id=27277
David Skinner, UK

]]> By: eugene moreau http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-127977 eugene moreau Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:55:34 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-127977 Thanks Bill. Nicely avoided everything I actually said. I listened to the sermon by Jim Graham as recommended by David Skinner. It was very enjoyable. It mentions being a child of God (Sonship) and presents the love of God quite movingly. Sonship is an uncommon theme these days? Eugene Moreau Thanks Bill. Nicely avoided everything I actually said.
I listened to the sermon by Jim Graham as recommended by David Skinner. It was very enjoyable. It mentions being a child of God (Sonship) and presents the love of God quite movingly. Sonship is an uncommon theme these days?
Eugene Moreau

]]> By: Greg Brien http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-127973 Greg Brien Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:39:30 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-127973 Bill, This morning I spent time with a group of 200 or so people in Kona, Hawaii, praising the LORD. During the time, we sang the hymn, "When I survey the wondrous cross" at least twice, just to emphasise its importance. Most of the 200 people were young people, which was thrilling to a 60 year old's heart. A young man led us in a prayer applying the truths of the cross to our lives. Yes, most have forgotten the wonderful truths of salvation through the atonement wrought on the cross but here was a gathering of people walking inthe Way and committed to those truths, and to making them know to every person, in every nation, in every sphere of influence. Greg Brien Bill,
This morning I spent time with a group of 200 or so people in Kona, Hawaii, praising the LORD. During the time, we sang the hymn, “When I survey the wondrous cross” at least twice, just to emphasise its importance. Most of the 200 people were young people, which was thrilling to a 60 year old’s heart. A young man led us in a prayer applying the truths of the cross to our lives. Yes, most have forgotten the wonderful truths of salvation through the atonement wrought on the cross but here was a gathering of people walking inthe Way and committed to those truths, and to making them know to every person, in every nation, in every sphere of influence.
Greg Brien

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-127970 david skinner Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:19:27 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-127970 Eugene you seem to be against doctrine but if your posts here are not doctrine, I don’t know what are! You say that “it is not doctrine that sees us to Heaven but faith in Christ and an embracing, forgiving Father. It is His action in history that has reconciled all things to Him. This is the heart of the Gospel“ But which Christ? It can only be the one revealed in scripture and the one that you speak of bares no relationship to the one revealed there. The heart of all this is be found in 2 Peter 2 ….. “if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. ………For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. …..For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” Or 1 Corinthians 5: 5 “hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.” Or 1 peter 4:18 “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear.” I find your our question regarding the party or banquet truly confusing. You say, “We can choose not to go into the Party, like older brother in the prodigal story. That’s got to be Hell! But is there more to Hell than that?” There sure is Eugene; in Matt 22:11 it says, "but when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are invited, but few are chosen." It seems to me Eugene that yours is a “Take it or leave it” gospel and that there are no real consequences from leaving it apart from missing on out on the extras, like a naughty child denied going on school trip with the other kids. - no big deal. Does this verse no meaning anything either? Matt 10 28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell“. David Skinner, UK Eugene you seem to be against doctrine but if your posts here are not doctrine, I don’t know what are! You say that “it is not doctrine that sees us to Heaven but faith in Christ and an embracing, forgiving Father. It is His action in history that has reconciled all things to Him. This is the heart of the Gospel“
But which Christ? It can only be the one revealed in scripture and the one that you speak of bares no relationship to the one revealed there.

The heart of all this is be found in 2 Peter 2 ….. “if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. ………For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. …..For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”
Or
1 Corinthians 5: 5 “hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.”
Or
1 peter 4:18 “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear.”

I find your our question regarding the party or banquet truly confusing. You say, “We can choose not to go into the Party, like older brother in the prodigal story. That’s got to be Hell! But is there more to Hell than that?”

There sure is Eugene; in Matt 22:11 it says, “but when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

It seems to me Eugene that yours is a “Take it or leave it” gospel and that there are no real consequences from leaving it apart from missing on out on the extras, like a naughty child denied going on school trip with the other kids. – no big deal.

Does this verse no meaning anything either?
Matt 10 28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell“.

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/02/21/a-review-of-the-truth-of-the-cross-by-rc-sproul/comment-page-1/#comment-127960 Bill Muehlenberg Tue, 24 Feb 2009 07:25:23 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1221#comment-127960 Thanks again Eugene But with all due respect, all your latest comment does is to reveal how little you understand what the other side is in fact saying on this issue. You have managed to mangle and massacre the theological position of just about all of your opponents here, including Sproul and myself. I could spend pages dissecting your faulty and jaundiced understanding of those with whom you differ. There is of course nothing limited about God’s love. And salvation has absolutely nothing to do with meeting the right conditions to merit it. And of course the gospel makes no sense whatsoever unless it is sin-focused. There can be no good news without the bad news. And so on. Setting up straw men and red herrings – and then thinking how clever one is in shooting them down - helps no one here. Perhaps this is all the more reason why you should swallow a bit of your pride, actually read the book in question, and then continue your criticism. You of course do not need do accept what Sproul says (I don’t accept it all). But you do need to know what he – and others - are actually saying before you offer your criticisms. And BTW, the last line on wrath which you so strenuously objected to was simply based on passages I had just been reading, namely, 1 Thess. 1:10, 2:16 and 2 Thess. 1:6-10. These and numerous other passages are fairly straight-forward in what they teach about coming wrath. It seems these are the sorts of passages you simply want to ignore. But we are called to wrestle seriously and honestly with passages which challenge our pet theologies, and not simply jettison them. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks again Eugene

But with all due respect, all your latest comment does is to reveal how little you understand what the other side is in fact saying on this issue. You have managed to mangle and massacre the theological position of just about all of your opponents here, including Sproul and myself.

I could spend pages dissecting your faulty and jaundiced understanding of those with whom you differ. There is of course nothing limited about God’s love. And salvation has absolutely nothing to do with meeting the right conditions to merit it. And of course the gospel makes no sense whatsoever unless it is sin-focused. There can be no good news without the bad news. And so on. Setting up straw men and red herrings – and then thinking how clever one is in shooting them down – helps no one here.

Perhaps this is all the more reason why you should swallow a bit of your pride, actually read the book in question, and then continue your criticism. You of course do not need do accept what Sproul says (I don’t accept it all). But you do need to know what he – and others – are actually saying before you offer your criticisms.

And BTW, the last line on wrath which you so strenuously objected to was simply based on passages I had just been reading, namely, 1 Thess. 1:10, 2:16 and 2 Thess. 1:6-10. These and numerous other passages are fairly straight-forward in what they teach about coming wrath. It seems these are the sorts of passages you simply want to ignore. But we are called to wrestle seriously and honestly with passages which challenge our pet theologies, and not simply jettison them.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

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