Comments on: Scrooge, the Church, and Christmas http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/12/21/scrooge-the-church-and-christmas/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:31:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Servaas Hofmeyr http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/12/21/scrooge-the-church-and-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-122264 Servaas Hofmeyr Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:28:21 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1031#comment-122264 I discovered this site through CMI's website recently and would love to still read many of the topics discussed-seems very informative. Interesting to read the views on Christmas celebrations. I'm from South Africa and had the privelege to live in Australia for 6 months during 2008 and visit various local churches over there and also connect with quite a few people. Our two country's church history and current situations are similar but different in many ways as well. South Africa seem to have a much more religious background(it seems) and the church's biggest (or great, at least) enemy over here is religion itself, together with the "new-agers", "humanists", etc and all the other usual suspects. We are approaching revival here and it is already huge among some of our people groups. What seems will happen here though is that the people are starting to reject the hype around Christmas as they commit to God again (this is just something I'm noticing). The day is still used by these churches (who do not celebrate Christmas anymore) to preach pure gospel and reach the lost. People are moving more towards being committed to Christ daily and not being caught up in unnecessary/non-Christian traditions. So what is happening here is Christmas is also coming under-attack (in a different way) but through that Christ is preached. Servaas Hofmeyr I discovered this site through CMI’s website recently and would love to still read many of the topics discussed-seems very informative. Interesting to read the views on Christmas celebrations. I’m from South Africa and had the privelege to live in Australia for 6 months during 2008 and visit various local churches over there and also connect with quite a few people. Our two country’s church history and current situations are similar but different in many ways as well. South Africa seem to have a much more religious background(it seems) and the church’s biggest (or great, at least) enemy over here is religion itself, together with the “new-agers”, “humanists”, etc and all the other usual suspects. We are approaching revival here and it is already huge among some of our people groups. What seems will happen here though is that the people are starting to reject the hype around Christmas as they commit to God again (this is just something I’m noticing). The day is still used by these churches (who do not celebrate Christmas anymore) to preach pure gospel and reach the lost. People are moving more towards being committed to Christ daily and not being caught up in unnecessary/non-Christian traditions. So what is happening here is Christmas is also coming under-attack (in a different way) but through that Christ is preached.
Servaas Hofmeyr

]]> By: Patricia Halligan http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/12/21/scrooge-the-church-and-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-118972 Patricia Halligan Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:53:26 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1031#comment-118972 Dear Bill, I am sorry to say that my llttle crib which I wrote about before Christmas and which I loved so much was trashed by three teenagers probably on their way home from a night club early last Sunday morning.They stole the doll which served as the baby Jesus. Nothing happens unless God wants it to happen so I wrote to the local newspaper who came up and took a photo and who will do a story on it. Hopefully it will make people think. I said that if they can do this to my little crib they wouldn't think twice about trashing a grave, a church or a roadside cross as since they have been brought up without faith they cannot honour what is sacred. Some of my Australian friends were upset to hear me say that Australia is becoming increasingly godless. They don't want to believe it and think I am exaggerating and being judgemental. However, I think they are either ill informed or see life through rose-coloured spectacles because I don't see the young flocking to the churches in great numbers and they are the future of the church. WYD was a great success but you can't use that as a gauge to faith in Australia as many of the young people came from overseas. That doesn't mean to say that the young who went from here won't be stronger in their faith because of it and influence their peers and that will be a start. I was filled with sadness at the trashing of my crib but I thought how much more saddened would Our Lord be at this sacrilege by young people who are so dear to his heart. I will still put it up next year God Willing. God Bless and a Happy New Year. Pat Halligan Dear Bill, I am sorry to say that my llttle crib which I wrote about before Christmas and which I loved so much was trashed by three teenagers probably on their way home from a night club early last Sunday morning.They stole the doll which served as the baby Jesus. Nothing happens unless God wants it to happen so I wrote to the local newspaper who came up and took a photo and who will do a story on it. Hopefully it will make people think. I said that if they can do this to my little crib they wouldn’t think twice about trashing a grave, a church or a roadside cross as since they have been brought up without faith they cannot honour what is sacred. Some of my Australian friends were upset to hear me say that Australia is becoming increasingly godless. They don’t want to believe it and think I am exaggerating and being judgemental. However, I think they are either ill informed or see life through rose-coloured spectacles because I don’t see the young flocking to the churches in great numbers and they are the future of the church. WYD was a great success but you can’t use that as a gauge to faith in Australia as many of the young people came from overseas. That doesn’t mean to say that the young who went from here won’t be stronger in their faith because of it and influence their peers and that will be a start. I was filled with sadness at the trashing of my crib but I thought how much more saddened would Our Lord be at this sacrilege by young people who are so dear to his heart. I will still put it up next year God Willing. God Bless and a Happy New Year.
Pat Halligan

]]> By: Simon Kennedy http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/12/21/scrooge-the-church-and-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-118146 Simon Kennedy Wed, 24 Dec 2008 02:14:52 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1031#comment-118146 Well said, Bill. It is disturbing when 'religious leaders' can't mention the reason for the season. Regarding your thoughts about this Christless Christianity; this, as you pointed to, stems from a tendency to be relevant and careful in the church. The church has an opportunity to redeem Christmas as a festival, in the same sense that N. T. Wright talks about regarding Easter, in 'Surprised By Hope'. Yet, the church either celebrates like the world (without mentioning Jesus), or doesn't celebrate at all (therefore behaving like Scrooge!). R. C. Sproul has some interesting thoughts on this. http://www.greyleads.com/philosophy/christ_and_christmas/ Simon Kennedy Well said, Bill. It is disturbing when ‘religious leaders’ can’t mention the reason for the season. Regarding your thoughts about this Christless Christianity; this, as you pointed to, stems from a tendency to be relevant and careful in the church.

The church has an opportunity to redeem Christmas as a festival, in the same sense that N. T. Wright talks about regarding Easter, in ‘Surprised By Hope’. Yet, the church either celebrates like the world (without mentioning Jesus), or doesn’t celebrate at all (therefore behaving like Scrooge!). R. C. Sproul has some interesting thoughts on this.

http://www.greyleads.com/philosophy/christ_and_christmas/

Simon Kennedy

]]> By: Teresa http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/12/21/scrooge-the-church-and-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-118134 Teresa Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:26:17 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1031#comment-118134 Funny, they should ban all the real sordid activities that go on at midnight (every Weekend) in the main streets of the Sunshine Coast, Gold Coast etc. Weak parish. Teresa Binder Funny, they should ban all the real sordid activities that go on at midnight (every Weekend) in the main streets of the Sunshine Coast, Gold Coast etc. Weak parish.
Teresa Binder

]]> By: Ewan http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/12/21/scrooge-the-church-and-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-117802 Ewan Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:35:12 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1031#comment-117802 Many of the local country papers where I live carry a weekly 'religious' column where the local pastors/priests/ministers take turns in supplying an article. Rarely is the Gospel message presented in a plain or coherent manner. Mostly they are just platitudes and sentimental stories with some kind of a moral lesson included. Sometimes a false gospel is promoted where the message is something about trying Jesus because he will make you a better person or something along those lines. Ewan McDonald. Many of the local country papers where I live carry a weekly ‘religious’ column where the local pastors/priests/ministers take turns in supplying an article. Rarely is the Gospel message presented in a plain or coherent manner. Mostly they are just platitudes and sentimental stories with some kind of a moral lesson included. Sometimes a false gospel is promoted where the message is something about trying Jesus because he will make you a better person or something along those lines.

Ewan McDonald.

]]> By: Patricia Halligan http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/12/21/scrooge-the-church-and-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-117633 Patricia Halligan Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:21:03 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1031#comment-117633 Dear Bill, Thank you for all your interesting articles. They are always an inspiration to me.You wrote about the wishy washy Christmas messages by so called Christian leaders and I agree with you .People have probably stopped listening because they are so wishy washy.However, I am no leader, just an ordinary Catholic Christian trying to do my bit to spread the Christian message to the people who live around me and hopefully it will be because of people like me and my husband that Christ will succeed in touching the hearts of those who show only coldness towards him. Here is what we are doing without speaking a single word. For the past seven years my husband and I have erected a Christmas Crib on our sub division. It didn't cost very much. Just a few pieces of wood, palm leaves and dry grass to form a stable. I bought some pieces of material from the op shop to dress the home made figures of Mary,Joseph, the three Kings and some shepherds. I bought a baby doll to serve as the baby Jesus and wrapped it in a long strip of white material. A basket on a block of wood serves as a manger.I bought some stuffed toy lambs,camels and donkeys from the op shop and finally I bought a couple of plastic angels from the $2 shop and a few fairy lights to complete the simple scene which speaks volumes. A spotlight which my neighbour gave me lights up the inside at night. I go out there each evening after dark and say a few prayers and reflect on what Christmas really means.It is so refreshing and peaceful after the noise, garishness and artificiality of the shopping centre where we are forced to go sometimes to shop.I really believe that if I didn't put up the Christmas crib every year my neighbours would never give a thought to Our Dear Lord Jesus's birth. Yes, they take part in the Christmas festivities and shopping as most people do but Jesus would never come into their Christmas but for my little Christmas crib. There it stands every year, silently but eloquantly proclaiming to every one who lives in the cul de sac or comes into it that God came into the world as a little baby born of a woman to save us. Each year it takes a bit more of the energy that we have left as we are both getting on a bit and each year we are tempted not to bother as our neighbours seem to us to take so little notice of it now compared to the first year we put it up. However, we can't see into their hearts and know what they really think. Only God can do that so we keep persevering year after year as I am sure He would want us to. The kids who live in the cul -de- sac and those who visit it have grown up with it and as most of these young ones, I am certain, have had very little contact with the Christian message in their young lives, it is for their sakes, as for any other reason that we persevere. Signs and symbols have such an impact on children's minds and hearts that I know that when they grow up they will remember that there was an old man and woman who used to put up a Christmas crib every year at Christmas in the cul de sac where they used to live or visit and that seed which we planted may begin to grow. God is very patient and He will wait for them. God Bless Always and have a happy and holy Christmas. Patricia Halligan Dear Bill, Thank you for all your interesting articles. They are always an inspiration to me.You wrote about the wishy washy Christmas messages by so called Christian leaders and I agree with you .People have probably stopped listening because they are so wishy washy.However, I am no leader, just an ordinary Catholic Christian trying to do my bit to spread the Christian message to the people who live around me and hopefully it will be because of people like me and my husband that Christ will succeed in touching the hearts of those who show only coldness towards him. Here is what we are doing without speaking a single word. For the past seven years my husband and I have erected a Christmas Crib on our sub division. It didn’t cost very much. Just a few pieces of wood, palm leaves and dry grass to form a stable. I bought some pieces of material from the op shop to dress the home made figures of Mary,Joseph, the three Kings and some shepherds. I bought a baby doll to serve as the baby Jesus and wrapped it in a long strip of white material. A basket on a block of wood serves as a manger.I bought some stuffed toy lambs,camels and donkeys from the op shop and finally I bought a couple of plastic angels from the $2 shop and a few fairy lights to complete the simple scene which speaks volumes. A spotlight which my neighbour gave me lights up the inside at night. I go out there each evening after dark and say a few prayers and reflect on what Christmas really means.It is so refreshing and peaceful after the noise, garishness and artificiality of the shopping centre where we are forced to go sometimes to shop.I really believe that if I didn’t put up the Christmas crib every year my neighbours would never give a thought to Our Dear Lord Jesus’s birth. Yes, they take part in the Christmas festivities and shopping as most people do but Jesus would never come into their Christmas but for my little Christmas crib. There it stands every year, silently but eloquantly proclaiming to every one who lives in the cul de sac or comes into it that God came into the world as a little baby born of a woman to save us. Each year it takes a bit more of the energy that we have left as we are both getting on a bit and each year we are tempted not to bother as our neighbours seem to us to take so little notice of it now compared to the first year we put it up. However, we can’t see into their hearts and know what they really think. Only God can do that so we keep persevering year after year as I am sure He would want us to. The kids who live in the cul -de- sac and those who visit it have grown up with it and as most of these young ones, I am certain, have had very little contact with the Christian message in their young lives, it is for their sakes, as for any other reason that we persevere. Signs and symbols have such an impact on children’s minds and hearts that I know that when they grow up they will remember that there was an old man and woman who used to put up a Christmas crib every year at Christmas in the cul de sac where they used to live or visit and that seed which we planted may begin to grow. God is very patient and He will wait for them. God Bless Always and have a happy and holy Christmas.
Patricia Halligan

]]> By: Michael Watts http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/12/21/scrooge-the-church-and-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-117624 Michael Watts Sun, 21 Dec 2008 04:57:39 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/?p=1031#comment-117624 Indeed, churches in Australia should take heed lest their lampstands be removed (Rev. 1:20). The main Baptist church in Launceston, Tasmania has in large gold letters on the front of the building: <blockquote>We preach Christ crucified</blockquote> How long before that's erased in the name of tolerance? Michael Watts Indeed, churches in Australia should take heed lest their lampstands be removed (Rev. 1:20).

The main Baptist church in Launceston, Tasmania has in large gold letters on the front of the building:

We preach Christ crucified

How long before that’s erased in the name of tolerance?

Michael Watts

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