And @Angie, please let’s put to death the strawman of ‘saving women from backyard abortions’ that was used in Roe vs Wade as a FUD (fear uncertainty doubt) approach. The reality is that the incidence of backyard abortions is minuscule – I read somewhere that in the year that Roe vs Wade case was heard, there was only one substantiated case of backyard abortion in the U.S. Consequently the U.S. and now Australians have consigned millions of babies to unnecessary death, even as late as the 42nd week of pregnancy, due to a minuscule instance of illegal abortion. And since then, then social stigma of a child out of wedlock and thus the motivation for an abortion to avoid that, has disappeared as well.

While I agree that we do need to reach all political parties at grass roots level what we’re discussing is the need for Christians to be politically aware and active, and at least vote according to the most pressing biblical reasons facing us today.

Personally I’m not sure how you can be a leftist Christian since socialist philosophies at the core are anti-God, but avoiding a long argument about this topic and what you mean by ‘left leaning’, I would say that the statement that some Christians avoid going to church because they believe they have to be a ‘born again conservative’ either means they are looking in the wrong churches or that they are looking to take offense even before they set foot in church. I haven’t been in a church in my entire life that has *promoted* specific political parties or even promoted political left/right positions. I know of Christians in churches I have attended with a range of political voting choices which is their right, even within churches where the church have supported a Christian party. I think this argument is another strawman.

Garth Penglase

But I must take issue with you here about your understanding of the abortion issue. One can also say, ‘there will always be rape” or ‘there will always be murder’. Given that you seem to be more of the left, that seems like a rather laissez faire thing to say! I am not sure if that is a helpful contribution to the debate.

And with all due respect, you are quite amiss here. You seem to think Obama and the Democrats only reluctantly want to allow abortion. This is quite misleading. The Democratic platform insists on the right and the good of freely available abortion. Obama and the Democrats are fully in the thrall of pro-abortion feminists, so there is no reluctance here whatsoever. They consider abortion to be an inherent right and duty of every woman. It is a sacred duty and hallmark of the left.

And you are unfortunately very wrong about what conservatives are doing about this. In addition to seeking to stand up and speak for the killing of the innocents (which is a terribly important work in itself), they are doing plenty of practical things. They have crisis pregnancy centres, they have adoption option providers, they have accommodation for pregnant women, they have counselling centres, including the very important counselling work for the millions of women suffering from post-abortion grief. The list goes on an on.

There would be many tens of thousands of tireless volunteers and workers helping women every day in this area. You really need to get up to speed with what the very busy and multifaceted pro-life movement is all about. If you only rely on the mainstream media for your information, that might explain why you simply seem to be out of touch here on this issue.

Have you ever been to a pro-life counselling service Angie? Are you even aware of all the work that goes into helping women here? Respectfully, you seem to have only ever exposed yourself to leftist pro-abortion rhetoric here. We of course expect that from a biased and one-sided mainstream media. But we should all do a better job of informing ourselves about these very important issues.

But thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

This left/right focus can to some extent alienate more left leaning Christians – and may put off others from joining a church as you have to be a ‘born again conservative’ We need to reach all political parties at a grass roots level. Gave some magazines ‘Voice of the Martys’ and ‘Barndabas Aid’ to some Labour Party supporters so that they can read whats going on in the world and its a way of spreading awareness…Also spoke to Bob Debus some time ago and he was surprised and not even aware that the Greens want to get rid of the Lords Prayer at the opening of Parliament. Yes, we do need to be vigilant but not just to endorse a ‘brand’ ..

Angie Volmensky

Robert Phillips

I do strongly agree that using Jesus as our model is indeed what we are required to do. And His main modus operandi was as a servant. His last gesture to the disciples was directly portraying how we are to win this world, as servants in love, against which nothing can stand. But to say that Christians should not seek to, or hold, positions of power, whether political or not, a simply false. Even in Revelations it talks of Christians becoming lenders to the nations. Right through the OT God elevated his people into positions of power (Joseph, Daniel, Moses etc.) directly for his purposes.

On the point of Darfur – each person has their personal mission(s) which God delegates directly to us. If Darfur is on your heart then that’s what you need to be one-eyed about – show God’s love and shed the salt and the light in that direction. We can’t all be involved in everything – but we should be involved (missions) ins something and we should be strongly committed to it. I would say that Bill’s focus when is comes to issues seem more toward standing against abortion, homosexuality and a valid path for changing these things is through the law, education, awareness and political involvement.

I do agree that many of the greatest men & women have been individuals who have changed a nation/generation without being in any major position of power and a favourite of mine is Wigglesworth who saw himself as no more and no less than simply a minister of the gospel. But there are many positions that God calls us to.

Garth Penglase

Thank you for your insightful words. I really like reading your blog. Just wanted to say thanks for bread. Hopefully you are making all of us evangelicals think and decide to stand up. Not to stand up for what we believe in as Christians, forgetting the “me” and my issues,but to stand up for God and the biblical truth is part of our commission. John the Baptist not was quiet in telling Herod of his sin, even though it cost him his life.

Like you have said – if Christian’s can’t stand up for the rights of the unborn – our Christianity has lost its saltiness and will be thrown out on the rubbish heap. To me this is as fundamental as believing Christ was raised from the dead and Paul says were would our faith be if we denied the resurrection.

If we are Christians who love the Lord we are obliged to use all opportunities to remind people of his love for us and that he demands our boldness in return.

We are facing some interesting times ahead with Obama. I am also personally very disappointed with Malcolm Turnbull for his support of the same sex amendments. It is incumbent on all Christians to stand up, be the watchman, and be that different voice, highlighting error in law or policy.

Paul was able to say to church at Ephesus that I have preached the full gospel to you all, thus your blood is not on my head. Christians need to understand that silence is not an acceptable course.

Keep up the good work and our prayers are with you

Stephen Dowling

But I am not engaging in “a slimy tactic’ here, simply responding to you in particular and many others like you in general.

So let me reply to your next points. The early Christians were not involved in politics and the military of the day for one very simple reason Dave. They were a persecuted minority, struggling to stay alive. One usually does not join with the very ones trying to kill and torture you. For Christians to join the military back then, for example, would have meant believers would be persecuting other believers (not a very wise move). Also, military life then was rife with idolatry and pagan practices, including emperor worship. No Christian in good conscience could join it in those circumstances.

Also, Jews were exempt from military service back then, and of course most of the early converts to Christianity were Jews, so they were exempt as well. Much more can be said, but perhaps you need to do a bit more study of church history here.

And respectfully, your remarks about Augustine and Calvin show a pretty uniformed and distorted understanding of their positions. They both recognised what the Bible says: we have dual respobsibilites as citizens of two kingdoms.

And power in itself is not wrong. God exercises power all the time. Parents exercise power all the time. Governments exercise power all the time. This is all part of God’s means of governance. Indeed, power is even part of the Christian life (eg., 2 Tim. 1:7, etc). So your very understanding of power seems to be a bit weak here.

And my case for your premise being off was not built on just the circumcision remark of course, but everything I had said prior to it. And it still seems you are operating on shaky premises.

Also, I fail to see why we must accept your false distinction: why cannot believers fulfil their biblical calling to be good citizens without “placing hope for change in government”? I do not think governments can save anyone. But the Bible certainly tells us that government is ordained by God, and we should pray for governments and fulfil our biblical political and social obligations. To do so is not to renounce the power of the spirit, or to turn government into an idol.

And you completely misrepresent me in your last paragraph: did I anywhere say we should not follow all the teachings of Jesus Dave? What I did say is not everything Jesus did, or did not do, is a paradigm for us. He never married, he was circumcised, etc. etc, as I said in my earlier comment. I don’t know of any Christian who thinks we must slavishly emulate everything Jesus did or didn’t do. So there is nothing “appalling” about what I said, and I of course am not throwing any teachings of Jesus out the window, as you wrongly claim.

And Dave, we still await an answer: Was Wilberforce, who used the power of politics to bring biblical justice to slaves out of the will of God and being “anti-kingdom” (your words)?

But as I say, we may have to agree to disagree here.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

the early christians shunned political and military involvement. this is well-documented and acknowledged by all early church scholars. thanks to people like constantine, augustine and calvin, christians now believe that being in control of society through political authority and power is synonymous with following Christ. this is not the case. as you noted, there are still large groups of believers who still follow this mode of thinking.

and yes, power is (most often) linked with political authority. sorry, but your assertian to the opposite is a rarity.

my premise is not off the mark simply on account of the circumcision issue that you bring up. that is simply a cop-out. we are told repeatedly to imitate Christ. in all things, we are to look like Christ. forgiving, loving our enemies, blessing those who curse us and standing up for the poor, oppressed, needy and diseased. if getting involved politically is the answer to these problems today, then we should get involved, but if not, i believe Jesus did just fine (and so can we!!!) without placing our hope for change in government.

i actually find your claim that we should not seek to fully imitate Christ appalling. this is not Biblical at all. i find it funny that many modern Christians are willing to fight for inerrancy and authority of Scripture, but when the rubber meets the road, the hard teachings of Christ are thrown out the window.

Dave Capozzi

To me that means if He has talented me as butcher, baker, candlestick maker, then it is there that I am His child / warrior / instrument to exercise the transforming power of His authority and Love and see others turned to Righteousness.

Ray Robinson

Another observation one could make re Obama, is that if abortion had been as prevalent when he was born as it is now, then perhaps he wouldn’t even be alive today to be the President-elect. After all, the black American community has one of the highest abortion rates of any group.

Ewan McDonald.