Comments on: Why the Mainline Becomes the Sidelined http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Sat, 11 Feb 2012 02:03:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jonathan Sarfati http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/comment-page-1/#comment-112746 Jonathan Sarfati Sat, 22 Nov 2008 02:13:29 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/#comment-112746 There is no need to be intimidated by the new atheists. Misotheists like Dawkins attack creationist teachings, but give credence to wacky ideas like ‘Jesus never existed’ rejected by historians. Other antitheists like Bill Maher hold even wackier views, e.g. rejecting germ theory. See <a href="http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/6161" rel="nofollow">Dawkins’ Ironic Hypocrisy: lambasting creationist beliefs while advocating nonsense himself</a> Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane There is no need to be intimidated by the new atheists. Misotheists like Dawkins attack creationist teachings, but give credence to wacky ideas like ‘Jesus never existed’ rejected by historians. Other antitheists like Bill Maher hold even wackier views, e.g. rejecting germ theory. See Dawkins’ Ironic Hypocrisy: lambasting creationist beliefs while advocating nonsense himself
Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

]]> By: Dee Graf http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/comment-page-1/#comment-110023 Dee Graf Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:43:52 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/#comment-110023 In a cultural environment that is rife with forces seeking to hammer down Biblical truth, this clarification is vital. Christianity is not charity. What a poor substitute. It's true that the early church gave to the poor, but that money came out of personal generosity, it wasn't extracted by the government and redistributed amongst those it sees fit to benefit, politicians included! A small government accountable to a voting democracy will always be, to some extent, kept in check. The bigger the beast of big, greedy government gets, the more totalitarian it becomes and the more it wants to stamp out true religion, its natural enemy, because Marxism is, in itself, a religion in which 'dear leader' becomes the (counterfeit) provider and salvation. The dying entropic entity that is the liberal church you describe is preparing itself to be subordinate to the overriding government head rather than to God; a perfect socialist substitute for dynamic Biblical Christianity. Dee Graf In a cultural environment that is rife with forces seeking to hammer down Biblical truth, this clarification is vital. Christianity is not charity. What a poor substitute. It’s true that the early church gave to the poor, but that money came out of personal generosity, it wasn’t extracted by the government and redistributed amongst those it sees fit to benefit, politicians included! A small government accountable to a voting democracy will always be, to some extent, kept in check. The bigger the beast of big, greedy government gets, the more totalitarian it becomes and the more it wants to stamp out true religion, its natural enemy, because Marxism is, in itself, a religion in which ‘dear leader’ becomes the (counterfeit) provider and salvation.
The dying entropic entity that is the liberal church you describe is preparing itself to be subordinate to the overriding government head rather than to God; a perfect socialist substitute for dynamic Biblical Christianity.
Dee Graf

]]> By: Frank Norros http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/comment-page-1/#comment-109218 Frank Norros Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:44:13 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/#comment-109218 To continue on Mike's contribution, the Catholic Church in Australia recently commissioned (I think it was through the Australian Bishops Conference) an extensive survey to examine why its parishioner numbers had dropped since the 70's. Interestingly it found that since the reforms stemming from Vatican II there has been much disillusionment at what was a watering down of the true faith. I can remember cringing at those masses with awful guitar bands playing "I wanna have a beer with Jesus" type songs. On the other hand the recent surge in youth groups based on sound biblical doctrine is evidence that to reach out to young people you need something for them to aspire to, not merely to reflect and reinforce values that they themselves are still only shaping and probing as they mature. An unfortunate aspect is that when the NCC and such like organisations do something such as the letter to Obama, they are only reinforcing the liberalist view of the the role of religion, hence the immediate coverage by the left controlled media. There of plenty of "religious" people out there who are only happy with the fluffy utopian view promoted by the NCC and rebel churches such as St Mary's in South Brisbane. Any religious life that involves real struggles to live by God's biblical laws has them running for the hills and bleating about intolerance. They fail to see that they are merely reflecting their own watered down and liberal stance on issues of morality. A church that waters down biblical truth to try and be everything to everyone, ends up being nothing to anyone. Frank Norros To continue on Mike’s contribution, the Catholic Church in Australia recently commissioned (I think it was through the Australian Bishops Conference) an extensive survey to examine why its parishioner numbers had dropped since the 70′s. Interestingly it found that since the reforms stemming from Vatican II there has been much disillusionment at what was a watering down of the true faith. I can remember cringing at those masses with awful guitar bands playing “I wanna have a beer with Jesus” type songs.

On the other hand the recent surge in youth groups based on sound biblical doctrine is evidence that to reach out to young people you need something for them to aspire to, not merely to reflect and reinforce values that they themselves are still only shaping and probing as they mature.

An unfortunate aspect is that when the NCC and such like organisations do something such as the letter to Obama, they are only reinforcing the liberalist view of the the role of religion, hence the immediate coverage by the left controlled media. There of plenty of “religious” people out there who are only happy with the fluffy utopian view promoted by the NCC and rebel churches such as St Mary’s in South Brisbane. Any religious life that involves real struggles to live by God’s biblical laws has them running for the hills and bleating about intolerance. They fail to see that they are merely reflecting their own watered down and liberal stance on issues of morality.

A church that waters down biblical truth to try and be everything to everyone, ends up being nothing to anyone.

Frank Norros

]]> By: Mike Evans http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/comment-page-1/#comment-109136 Mike Evans Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:17:48 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/#comment-109136 Bill, about 2000 - 2001, Harvest Bible College had Andrew Bolt (Herald-Sun columnist) speak from a non-Christian perspective about the view he had of 'the church'.[You may have possibly been at the meeting.] His observations from working on several continents was that missionary-oriented, Bible believing churches, and churches (Catholic) which made a strong stand on family issues were the only ones growing in Australia and abroad. He noted the PC driven liberalist churches were tearing themselves apart with (leftist) political ideologies, and were almost satisfied with being Biblically illiterate and irrelevant. While studying at ACU (Australian Catholic Uni) the lecturers stated they were appalled at their own research which showed a paltry 2% church attendance rate of six year Catholic secondary school educated children one year after completing high school. This is not particulalry surprising when they teach the student RE teachers that the Genesis account of creation is 'myth'. This undermines all biblical credibility when children are taught that God's word is now seen as a fairy tale and a lie not to be believed. This is usually reinforced in science based classes where evolution has totally replaced God. Mantras, yoga, meditation and alternative spirituality have a stronghold in many Catholic schools as they are taught as equally credible ways to 'God' or heaven or salvation. Just don't take the Bible seriously... Mike Evans Bill, about 2000 – 2001, Harvest Bible College had Andrew Bolt (Herald-Sun columnist) speak from a non-Christian perspective about the view he had of ‘the church’.[You may have possibly been at the meeting.]

His observations from working on several continents was that missionary-oriented, Bible believing churches, and churches (Catholic) which made a strong stand on family issues were the only ones growing in Australia and abroad.

He noted the PC driven liberalist churches were tearing themselves apart with (leftist) political ideologies, and were almost satisfied with being Biblically illiterate and irrelevant.

While studying at ACU (Australian Catholic Uni) the lecturers stated they were appalled at their own research which showed a paltry 2% church attendance rate of six year Catholic secondary school educated children one year after completing high school.

This is not particulalry surprising when they teach the student RE teachers that the Genesis account of creation is ‘myth’. This undermines all biblical credibility when children are taught that God’s word is now seen as a fairy tale and a lie not to be believed.

This is usually reinforced in science based classes where evolution has totally replaced God.

Mantras, yoga, meditation and alternative spirituality have a stronghold in many Catholic schools as they are taught as equally credible ways to ‘God’ or heaven or salvation. Just don’t take the Bible seriously…

Mike Evans

]]> By: John Angelico http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/comment-page-1/#comment-109128 John Angelico Wed, 05 Nov 2008 12:57:04 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/#comment-109128 Paul, as Bill said the question goes to the Biblical concept of limited authority being given by God to subordinate instruments administering the world in which we live. Family: the smallest unit, but the most numerous, responsible for raising and training children, primary health, education and welfare, economics and business, and inheritance; headed by father with mother as suitable helper working together Church: responsible for preaching and teaching the full gospel of the Way, the Truth and the Life in Jesus, and expressing the corporate nature of the Kingdom of God (lots more could be said); includes some education, health and welfare; headed by elders Civil Government: responsible for maintaining law and order (to uphold what is right and punish what is evil, but to define neither), civil and military defence; specifically NOT charged with any responsibility for health, education or welfare; headed by civic elders, usually meant to be drawn from the body of church elders. Sorry - written in a bit of haste given the hour, but I hope you get the gist. I am sure you will find scripture references to confirm these. John Angelico Paul,

as Bill said the question goes to the Biblical concept of limited authority being given by God to subordinate instruments administering the world in which we live.

Family: the smallest unit, but the most numerous, responsible for raising and training children, primary health, education and welfare, economics and business, and inheritance; headed by father with mother as suitable helper working together

Church: responsible for preaching and teaching the full gospel of the Way, the Truth and the Life in Jesus, and expressing the corporate nature of the Kingdom of God (lots more could be said); includes some education, health and welfare; headed by elders

Civil Government: responsible for maintaining law and order (to uphold what is right and punish what is evil, but to define neither), civil and military defence; specifically NOT charged with any responsibility for health, education or welfare; headed by civic elders, usually meant to be drawn from the body of church elders.

Sorry – written in a bit of haste given the hour, but I hope you get the gist. I am sure you will find scripture references to confirm these.

John Angelico

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/comment-page-1/#comment-109124 Bill Muehlenberg Wed, 05 Nov 2008 12:23:46 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/#comment-109124 Thanks again Paul Just in case you might get impatient waiting for my article, let me at least direct you to two articles which begin to make the case against socialised health care. Interestingly they are both written by <em>black</em> American economists: http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2007/02/14/do_we_want_socialized_medicine http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell050603.asp Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks again Paul

Just in case you might get impatient waiting for my article, let me at least direct you to two articles which begin to make the case against socialised health care. Interestingly they are both written by black American economists:

townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2007/02/14/do_we_want_socialized_medicine
www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell050603.asp

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/comment-page-1/#comment-109120 Bill Muehlenberg Wed, 05 Nov 2008 12:06:42 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/#comment-109120 Thanks Paul Hey, you are just trying to make me write another article! I am not saying that a Christian must be opposed to mandatory national health care schemes. But it does tend to be one of those issues where those on the left are in favour of it, and those on the right are against it. The short answer is one primarily of economic considerations and related issues. It is part of the broader discussion of how many services should be provided by governments, and how effective and cost-efficient such nationalised systems are. And one can look at some of the major problems where socialised medicine is in place, eg., Canada, etc. But as I say, now I have to add this to the list of articles to write! But thanks for your thoughts. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Paul

Hey, you are just trying to make me write another article! I am not saying that a Christian must be opposed to mandatory national health care schemes. But it does tend to be one of those issues where those on the left are in favour of it, and those on the right are against it.

The short answer is one primarily of economic considerations and related issues. It is part of the broader discussion of how many services should be provided by governments, and how effective and cost-efficient such nationalised systems are. And one can look at some of the major problems where socialised medicine is in place, eg., Canada, etc. But as I say, now I have to add this to the list of articles to write! But thanks for your thoughts.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Paul Strecker http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/comment-page-1/#comment-109116 Paul Strecker Wed, 05 Nov 2008 11:46:29 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/05/why-the-mainline-becomes-the-sidelined/#comment-109116 Hi Bill, I wholeheartedly agree with the argument that the liberal branches of the church are shooting themselves in the foot. I am however curious to know why so many seem to disagree with national health care schemes. In principal it would seem to be a good thing would it not?...being assured of competent medical care regardless of income level or ability to pay. I know I've heard of horror stories where those without healthcare must forgo necessary medical treatment for the sole reason that they are unemployed and cannot afford medical insurance. (Some are unemployed purely because of their medical condition, a catch 22 if ever there was one) So I'm curious, is my perception correct? or are there other factors coming into play why some object to universal healthcare schemes. If so, what weighting should these factors be given when weighted against what should surely be the ideal situation of competent healthcare being available to every person. Paul Strecker Hi Bill, I wholeheartedly agree with the argument that the liberal branches of the church are shooting themselves in the foot.
I am however curious to know why so many seem to disagree with national health care schemes. In principal it would seem to be a good thing would it not?…being assured of competent medical care regardless of income level or ability to pay.

I know I’ve heard of horror stories where those without healthcare must forgo necessary medical treatment for the sole reason that they are unemployed and cannot afford medical insurance. (Some are unemployed purely because of their medical condition, a catch 22 if ever there was one)

So I’m curious, is my perception correct? or are there other factors coming into play why some object to universal healthcare schemes. If so, what weighting should these factors be given when weighted against what should surely be the ideal situation of competent healthcare being available to every person.

Paul Strecker

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