Yes the parent-child analogy is a good one. Families are about loving relationships, but they are also established by boundaries and rules.

It is interesting that in one of the few times when Jesus does refer to his disciples as friends, he mentions it in the context of keeping his commandments: “You are my friends if you do what I command” (John 15:14).

So there can be loving relationships with Jesus, but never at the expense of ignoring all that He asks of us and expects of us.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

I think there is a strong analogy with loving and obeying God and loving and obeying parents. Too often today parents want to be abovce all their children’s friends, and we are increasingly expecting the same of God – just be our friend, don’t tell us what is right and wrong.

Our relationship with children suffers, with adverse consequences for them in the same way our relationshp with God is in the contemporary church.

Jim Wallace

I have done as promised: I did some research on “The Imam and the Pastor” conference and have written up an assessment: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/04/truth-and-tolerance-christianity-and-islam/

Thanks again for the tip-off.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

Actually the phrase “sheep stealing” is a somewhat common term used for those who come to a church by transfer growth.

And you assume those who leave churches always do so because of abuse or being driven off. But we know that perhaps most people who leave churches do so for much less serious reasons: a lack of commitment, personality conflicts, they are simply church shoppers, they don’t like the type of music, etc. I write all this up here: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2001/12/12/a-review-of-stealing-sheep-the-church%e2%80%99s-hidden-problems-with-transfer-growth-by-william-chadwick/

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

It seems that most people coming into the emerging church movement are not new converts, but simply disgruntled believers who have left their own churches. So this is mainly transfer growth, not conversion growth. Sheep stealing is another term for all this!

Hi Bill,

I agree with the first and second sentences. But isn’t the third a little harsh? If one shepherd abuses and drives off his sheep, so that they wander off to another flock, should the second shepherd be accused of theft? Should s/he be required to return said stolen sheep to their master?

If so, then I must disagree with you on that.

There is one shepherd … Jesus … and we all are the sheep of his pasture. This idea that the sheep belong to the pastors is quite wrong-headed I think. Maybe you didn’t mean it to come across like that?

Stephen Frost, Melbourne

I must confess, I had not heard of that conference before. I will look it up, and if what you say is even remotely accurate, there will probably be an article coming to this site on the topic real soon! Thanks for the tip, and for the kind words.

Thanks also to the kind and encouraging words from Kirsten.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

You’ve probably read ‘the vision’ (below). I love it, because it speaks of the new breed – and it stirs me up!!!

The Vision
This man comes up to me and he says
What’s the vision
What’s the big idea
I open my mouth and the words come out like this
The vision
The vision is Jesus
Dangerously obsessively undeniably Jesus
The vision is an army of young people
You see bones
I see an army
And they are free from materialism
They laugh at 9 to 5 little prisons
They could eat caviar on Monday and crust on Tuesday
They wouldn’t even notice!!!!
They know the meaning of the matrix
They write their address in pencil
They are mobile like the wind
They belong to the nations
They need no passport
They are free
Yet they are slaves of the dirty
and hurting and dying
What is the vision?
The vision is holiness that hurts the eyes
It makes children laugh and adults angry
It gave up the game of minimum integrity long ago to reach for the stars
It scorns the good and strains for the best
It is dangerously pure
Light flickers from every secret motive, every private conversation
It loves people away from their Satan games, their suicide leaps
This is an army that will lay down their lives for the cause
a million times a day
Its soldiers choose to lose that they might win the great
‘Well done faithful sons and daughters’
Such heroes are as radical on Monday morning as they are on Sunday night
They don’t need fame from names
Instead they grin upwards and hear the heavenly crowd chanting again
and again:
COME ON! COME ON! COME ON!!!!
And this is the sound of the underground
The whisper of history in the making
Foundations shaking
Revolutionaries dreaming once again
Mystery is scheming in whispers
Conspiracy is breathing
This is the sound of the underground
And the army is disciplined
Young people who beat their bodies into submission
Every soldier would take a bullet for the cause
For me to live is Christ and to die is a gain
Sacrifice fuels the fire of victory
Winners, martyrs
Who can stop them
Can hormones hold them back? Can fear stop them?
Can failure succeed? Can death kill them?
And the generation prays like a dying man
With tongues beyond talking
With warrior cries with sulfuric tears
Waiting watching
24/7 365
Whatever it takes
That they will gave
Shaking mediocrity from its cozy little hide
Laying down their rights and their precious little wrongs
Laughing at labels, fasting essentials!
The advertisers cannot mold them!
Hollywood cannot hold them!
Peer pressure is powerless to shake their resolve!
Will they surrender their IMAGE!!!!!!! or their popularity?
THEY WOULD SURRENDER THEIR LIVES!
They pray as if it ALL DEPENDS ON GOD!
And they LIVE as though it all depends on them.

Kirsten Jack

I remember about 8 years ago, when asked to preach, I picked the topic of obedience. But my conscience had no peace – I kept getting the thought – preach on LOVE and obedience. I wasn’t interested, but I got no rest until I said, OK God – but you have to give me a revelation on love! And He did! I had a powerful encounter with God that night, that left me in no doubt as to the magnificence of God’s love. And all I wanted to do for the next few days was OBEY God. I was even able to stick to the speed limit!!! I’ve been in no doubt as to the absolute relationship between love and obedience ever since. And as you pointed out, John and 1 John are full of examples of this powerful connection!

A few other thoughts I’ve had kicking around – on opposites, that may be in fact intertwined:

1. Hardship and prosperity. Paul – I’ve learned the secret of being content in all circumstances – whether well fed or hungry
2. Free will and predestination – both are represented in the Scriptures. Perhaps, in the same way that our brains are too small to comprehend the eternal nature of God, and the trinity, perhaps in the same way both predestination and free will can occur at the same time. Just a thought.
3. Grace and judgment.
4. Faith and works (Romans AND James)

And arguments about these issues divide the church, and have done so for centuries, because both sides can be argued with Scripture. Perhaps it’s time, as you say, for the church to realise it’s an ‘AND’ not an ‘OR’.

Kirsten Jack