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	<title>Comments on: A Church Apology to Darwin?</title>
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	<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/</link>
	<description>Bill Muehlenberg&#039;s commentary on issues of the day...</description>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-104411</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-104411</guid>
		<description>Thanks Justin

Yes, you may be right about Darwin not imagining how his theories would be used, but his works certainly did provide the seedbed for many logical implications and applications. As Richard Weikart carefully argues in his very important 2004 book, &lt;i&gt;From Darwin to Hitler&lt;/i&gt;, the concepts found in Darwin’s writings led naturally to the eugenics movement and to the Nazis. Says Weikart:

“In philosophical terms, Darwinism was a necessary, but not a sufficient, cause for Nazi ideology. But however logical or illogical the connections are between Darwinism and Nazism, historically the connections are there and they cannot be wished away.”

“Darwinism by itself did not produce the Holocaust, but without Darwinism, especially in its social Darwinist and eugenics permutations, neither Hitler nor his Nazi followers would have had the necessary scientific underpinnings to convince themselves and their collaborators that one of the world’s greatest atrocities was really morally praiseworthy.”

Indeed, many Darwinists made the connection: “Not only did many leading Darwinists embrace eugenics, but also most eugenicists – certainly all the early leaders – considered eugenics a straightforward application of Darwinian principles to ethics and society. Darwin’s cousin, Francis Galton, the founder of modern eugenics, developed his ideas upon reading Darwin’s &lt;i&gt;Origin of the Species&lt;/i&gt;.”  

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Justin</p>
<p>Yes, you may be right about Darwin not imagining how his theories would be used, but his works certainly did provide the seedbed for many logical implications and applications. As Richard Weikart carefully argues in his very important 2004 book, <i>From Darwin to Hitler</i>, the concepts found in Darwin’s writings led naturally to the eugenics movement and to the Nazis. Says Weikart:</p>
<p>“In philosophical terms, Darwinism was a necessary, but not a sufficient, cause for Nazi ideology. But however logical or illogical the connections are between Darwinism and Nazism, historically the connections are there and they cannot be wished away.”</p>
<p>“Darwinism by itself did not produce the Holocaust, but without Darwinism, especially in its social Darwinist and eugenics permutations, neither Hitler nor his Nazi followers would have had the necessary scientific underpinnings to convince themselves and their collaborators that one of the world’s greatest atrocities was really morally praiseworthy.”</p>
<p>Indeed, many Darwinists made the connection: “Not only did many leading Darwinists embrace eugenics, but also most eugenicists – certainly all the early leaders – considered eugenics a straightforward application of Darwinian principles to ethics and society. Darwin’s cousin, Francis Galton, the founder of modern eugenics, developed his ideas upon reading Darwin’s <i>Origin of the Species</i>.”  </p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Lippiatt</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-104319</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Lippiatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-104319</guid>
		<description>I recently caught the tail end of a documentary on ABC which explored in part the role of children during the Holocaust. I remember one section that impacted me dramatically. A woman who had been the child of a Nazi SS officer was interviewed about her recollection of anti-semetic events. She said that she had believed what she had been taught and what her parents had been taught. Indoctrinated? Brainwashed perhaps? Whatever the case, a young teenage girl hated and persecuted Jews and other &#039;vermin&#039; because they were defective and sub standard human beings. This young woman endorsed and advocated mass genocide and sadly lives with the shame and guilt in hindsight. 

In reference to your article on the apology to Darwin. Hilter&#039;s use of eugenics to justify genocide had terrible consequences for the entire world. Darwin could never have imagined that his works would be used as a foundation for ethnic cleansing. Ingorance and naivety do not exuse us from our legacy. 

The church apologising to Darwin, is like canonising Nero for making the early church stronger in faith.

Justin Lippiatt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently caught the tail end of a documentary on ABC which explored in part the role of children during the Holocaust. I remember one section that impacted me dramatically. A woman who had been the child of a Nazi SS officer was interviewed about her recollection of anti-semetic events. She said that she had believed what she had been taught and what her parents had been taught. Indoctrinated? Brainwashed perhaps? Whatever the case, a young teenage girl hated and persecuted Jews and other &#8216;vermin&#8217; because they were defective and sub standard human beings. This young woman endorsed and advocated mass genocide and sadly lives with the shame and guilt in hindsight. </p>
<p>In reference to your article on the apology to Darwin. Hilter&#8217;s use of eugenics to justify genocide had terrible consequences for the entire world. Darwin could never have imagined that his works would be used as a foundation for ethnic cleansing. Ingorance and naivety do not exuse us from our legacy. </p>
<p>The church apologising to Darwin, is like canonising Nero for making the early church stronger in faith.</p>
<p>Justin Lippiatt</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Sarfati</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-101692</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Sarfati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:20:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-101692</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s appropriate that this apology is 70 years to the month after Chamberlain&#039;s appeasement of Hitler.  See &lt;a href=&quot;http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/6048&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Church of England apologises to Darwin: Anglican Church’s neo-Chamberlainite appeasement of secularism&lt;/a&gt;.
Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s appropriate that this apology is 70 years to the month after Chamberlain&#8217;s appeasement of Hitler.  See <a href="http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/6048" rel="nofollow">Church of England apologises to Darwin: Anglican Church’s neo-Chamberlainite appeasement of secularism</a>.<br />
Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Watts</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-101206</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Watts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-101206</guid>
		<description>One of Ken Ham&#039;s talks pointed out that the Church of England has already shown its full acceptance of Darwin by having him buried in the floor of Westminster Abbey (i.e. in the foundation of the church).  

Yet, Scottish Reformation leader John Knox now rests under a carpark.  His official apology will be long time coming.

Michael Watts</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of Ken Ham&#8217;s talks pointed out that the Church of England has already shown its full acceptance of Darwin by having him buried in the floor of Westminster Abbey (i.e. in the foundation of the church).  </p>
<p>Yet, Scottish Reformation leader John Knox now rests under a carpark.  His official apology will be long time coming.</p>
<p>Michael Watts</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-101141</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-101141</guid>
		<description>It makes you wonder if the Church of England should change its name.  It seems every Easter and Christmas, some high ranking church official denies the resurrection of Christ or the virgin birth or some other fundamental tenet of our faith.  With all these denials, there is nothing left to preach; no saviour, no salvation, no incarnation, no new life, no indwelling presence of God, no holy spirit and now no supernatural creator. 

The world does not need an insipid, watered down &quot;faith&quot; which fits in with a secular world view in order to be relevant.  People need to hear about a supernatural God and a revolutionary saviour!

Gary Morgan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It makes you wonder if the Church of England should change its name.  It seems every Easter and Christmas, some high ranking church official denies the resurrection of Christ or the virgin birth or some other fundamental tenet of our faith.  With all these denials, there is nothing left to preach; no saviour, no salvation, no incarnation, no new life, no indwelling presence of God, no holy spirit and now no supernatural creator. </p>
<p>The world does not need an insipid, watered down &#8220;faith&#8221; which fits in with a secular world view in order to be relevant.  People need to hear about a supernatural God and a revolutionary saviour!</p>
<p>Gary Morgan</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Ferrara</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-101099</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Ferrara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-101099</guid>
		<description>I  contend that the issues and confusions amoung Christians stem from our culture&#039;s sloppy worldview. Most Christians (and most people) have very very sloppy and un-thought out worldviews. If they had a well formed worldview they would see that Darwinism and Biblical Christianity are opposites.
A Christian with a sloppy worldview is prone to deception. As we all know there is only one problem with deception, that is.... its decieving. You believe 100% you are right when in actual fact you are wrong, or it leads to this amalgamation of worlviews that can&#039;t logically co-exist in a person&#039;s mind.
Joshua Ferrara</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I  contend that the issues and confusions amoung Christians stem from our culture&#8217;s sloppy worldview. Most Christians (and most people) have very very sloppy and un-thought out worldviews. If they had a well formed worldview they would see that Darwinism and Biblical Christianity are opposites.<br />
A Christian with a sloppy worldview is prone to deception. As we all know there is only one problem with deception, that is&#8230;. its decieving. You believe 100% you are right when in actual fact you are wrong, or it leads to this amalgamation of worlviews that can&#8217;t logically co-exist in a person&#8217;s mind.<br />
Joshua Ferrara</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-101089</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 07:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-101089</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the tip Ben

I have written up that story of apostasy here: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/16/the-bitter-fruit-of-apostasy/ 

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the tip Ben</p>
<p>I have written up that story of apostasy here: <a href="http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/16/the-bitter-fruit-of-apostasy/" rel="nofollow">www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/16/the-bitter-fruit-of-apostasy/</a> </p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Frost</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-101073</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Frost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 05:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-101073</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure how to respond to the latest dribble proceeding from the mouth of the Reverend Dr Malcolm Brown, so I think I will just ignore it as yet another sign of the complete and utter, utter, utter inconsequence of just about anything that the leadership of the C of E might have to say these days. They are blind guides leading the blind. Perhaps they could do us all a favour and get on with the falling-into-a-ditch part?!

&lt;blockquote&gt;“I can testify to the high quality of the fruits of God’s Spirit lived by many lesbian and gay Christians (as well as non-Christians) of my acquaintance”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not quite sure what to make of that statement either. It may be possible that some spirit-filled Christians might indeed be living in a homosexual lifestyle.  What that has to do with the price of fish though, I cannot work out. Was the writer asserting that because these people were exhibiting evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, that any acts that they do are therefore acceptable to God as a result? This completely ignores the whole question of sin (sin is a dirty word nowadays, I readily concede).  

Anyway, what kind of muddle-headed thinking is that? Just as a non-Christian can perform non-sinful acts/behaviours at times, similarly, a Christian can perform sinful acts at times.  One&#039;s beliefs do not excuse one&#039;s behaviours. I know the Apostle Paul had a similar problem, but he didn&#039;t seek to resolve the issue by excusing the behaviour, but rather by conceding that it was his wretched sinful nature that just wouldn&#039;t die, despite his best efforts. Perhaps these homosexual Christians could consider taking a lead out of his book?

Stephen Frost</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure how to respond to the latest dribble proceeding from the mouth of the Reverend Dr Malcolm Brown, so I think I will just ignore it as yet another sign of the complete and utter, utter, utter inconsequence of just about anything that the leadership of the C of E might have to say these days. They are blind guides leading the blind. Perhaps they could do us all a favour and get on with the falling-into-a-ditch part?!</p>
<blockquote><p>“I can testify to the high quality of the fruits of God’s Spirit lived by many lesbian and gay Christians (as well as non-Christians) of my acquaintance”</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not quite sure what to make of that statement either. It may be possible that some spirit-filled Christians might indeed be living in a homosexual lifestyle.  What that has to do with the price of fish though, I cannot work out. Was the writer asserting that because these people were exhibiting evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, that any acts that they do are therefore acceptable to God as a result? This completely ignores the whole question of sin (sin is a dirty word nowadays, I readily concede).  </p>
<p>Anyway, what kind of muddle-headed thinking is that? Just as a non-Christian can perform non-sinful acts/behaviours at times, similarly, a Christian can perform sinful acts at times.  One&#8217;s beliefs do not excuse one&#8217;s behaviours. I know the Apostle Paul had a similar problem, but he didn&#8217;t seek to resolve the issue by excusing the behaviour, but rather by conceding that it was his wretched sinful nature that just wouldn&#8217;t die, despite his best efforts. Perhaps these homosexual Christians could consider taking a lead out of his book?</p>
<p>Stephen Frost</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-101042</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-101042</guid>
		<description>It just gets better - &quot;Christian&quot; apologists one day, &quot;Christian&quot; denialists the next:

According to Dr Macnab, the new faith transcends denominations and religions. It is about searching, not dogma. It seeks the good, the tender and the beautiful, and finds it in Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, Christianity and Judaism.

Have a read for yourself:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/new-faith-throws-out-the-ten-commandments-20080915-4h3d.html

Ben Williams</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It just gets better &#8211; &#8220;Christian&#8221; apologists one day, &#8220;Christian&#8221; denialists the next:</p>
<p>According to Dr Macnab, the new faith transcends denominations and religions. It is about searching, not dogma. It seeks the good, the tender and the beautiful, and finds it in Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, Christianity and Judaism.</p>
<p>Have a read for yourself:<br />
<a href="http://www.theage.com.au/national/new-faith-throws-out-the-ten-commandments-20080915-4h3d.html" rel="nofollow">www.theage.com.au/national/new-faith-throws-out-the-ten-commandments-20080915-4h3d.html</a></p>
<p>Ben Williams</p>
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		<title>By: John Angelico</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/comment-page-1/#comment-100984</link>
		<dc:creator>John Angelico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/#comment-100984</guid>
		<description>When I read the news article last night, I nearly fell off my chair in amazed disbelief!

It is certainly a matter of either uproarious laughter at something so ridiculous, or deep shame that a supposedly intelligent person could propose such an apology.

Does no-one read Stephen Jay Gould (any more)? Try &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_hopeful-monsters.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Return of the Hopeful Monster&quot;&lt;/a&gt; where he cites Richard Goldschmidt on an important distinction which is totally ignored by the majority school of evolutionary theory today - that between micro- and macro-evolution. 

And of course the late Gould is on the outer with his concept of punctuated equilibria, despite the obvious fact that within the confines of the evolutionary camp, it does better with the evidence than incremental gradualism.

But he was honest enough to admit that if his theory can&#039;t explain the evidence, then someone else whose theory is closer, (maybe even the creationists, although he could never bring himself to admit that much) deserve a hearing.

The religion of evolutionism has most certainly taken over. But it is still infuriating that false Christians, who have abandoned the religion which pays their wages, claim to speak for all others in this &quot;apology&quot;.

John Angelico</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read the news article last night, I nearly fell off my chair in amazed disbelief!</p>
<p>It is certainly a matter of either uproarious laughter at something so ridiculous, or deep shame that a supposedly intelligent person could propose such an apology.</p>
<p>Does no-one read Stephen Jay Gould (any more)? Try <a href="http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_hopeful-monsters.html" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Return of the Hopeful Monster&#8221;</a> where he cites Richard Goldschmidt on an important distinction which is totally ignored by the majority school of evolutionary theory today &#8211; that between micro- and macro-evolution. </p>
<p>And of course the late Gould is on the outer with his concept of punctuated equilibria, despite the obvious fact that within the confines of the evolutionary camp, it does better with the evidence than incremental gradualism.</p>
<p>But he was honest enough to admit that if his theory can&#8217;t explain the evidence, then someone else whose theory is closer, (maybe even the creationists, although he could never bring himself to admit that much) deserve a hearing.</p>
<p>The religion of evolutionism has most certainly taken over. But it is still infuriating that false Christians, who have abandoned the religion which pays their wages, claim to speak for all others in this &#8220;apology&#8221;.</p>
<p>John Angelico</p>
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