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	<title>Comments on: On Christian Leadership Failures</title>
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	<description>Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day...</description>
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		<title>By: Stephen McGhee</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-105018</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen McGhee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-105018</guid>
		<description>I personally believe it is never too late for such a man, “a man shall never stand so tall than when he is on his knees”, great men as this are not easily found, but pride is a prison that does not easily let go.
Stephen McGhee</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally believe it is never too late for such a man, “a man shall never stand so tall than when he is on his knees”, great men as this are not easily found, but pride is a prison that does not easily let go.<br />
Stephen McGhee</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Brearley</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-99255</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Brearley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-99255</guid>
		<description>I have been a Christian now for 33 years, having been saved out of the hippie scene in far north Qld.. Of all the times I have heard that scripture quoted (in church) of how they overcame, by the blood of the Lamb etc. (Rev. 12:11), around 2/3 rds of the time, the last of the 3 ways they overcame is left out. (and they loved not their own lives, even unto death). I think this speaks volumes on the condition of the Church today. Of course, I am not earning my living from the Gospel, so I don&#039;t daily face the temptation to water-down and sugar-coat and just not mention some of the more unpalatable sections of scripture. The problem is, unless we present the full counsel of God, we leave ourselves vulnerable to all sorts of problems, like we are seeing. Psalm 15.
Ian Brearley</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been a Christian now for 33 years, having been saved out of the hippie scene in far north Qld.. Of all the times I have heard that scripture quoted (in church) of how they overcame, by the blood of the Lamb etc. (Rev. 12:11), around 2/3 rds of the time, the last of the 3 ways they overcame is left out. (and they loved not their own lives, even unto death). I think this speaks volumes on the condition of the Church today. Of course, I am not earning my living from the Gospel, so I don&#8217;t daily face the temptation to water-down and sugar-coat and just not mention some of the more unpalatable sections of scripture. The problem is, unless we present the full counsel of God, we leave ourselves vulnerable to all sorts of problems, like we are seeing. Psalm 15.<br />
Ian Brearley</p>
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		<title>By: Garth Penglase</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-97456</link>
		<dc:creator>Garth Penglase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-97456</guid>
		<description>While it really saddens me that this has occurred we should realise that God will not be mocked. Maybe this will encourage more churchgoers to question why they attend church, what Christianity really is about, and what their exalted leaders actually stand for. The recent events are just the tip of the iceberg, not the exception.

We live in pagan times, where our politicians claim they believe in God and act the opposite, where even from the pulpits many ungodly things are perpetrated and tolerated, and much is done and said in the name of God that He would not care to look upon. Unless we personally are intimate with God and His undying and unfathomable love for us, personally strive for holiness and stand up for Christ and the word of God, and are willing to count the cost, then our Christianity is largely hollow and will be shown as such - this is from someone whose Christian walk was no less shallow. There is a real cost to dying to self and living for Christ, but it&#039;s better than the cost of living for oneself.

Garth Penglase</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While it really saddens me that this has occurred we should realise that God will not be mocked. Maybe this will encourage more churchgoers to question why they attend church, what Christianity really is about, and what their exalted leaders actually stand for. The recent events are just the tip of the iceberg, not the exception.</p>
<p>We live in pagan times, where our politicians claim they believe in God and act the opposite, where even from the pulpits many ungodly things are perpetrated and tolerated, and much is done and said in the name of God that He would not care to look upon. Unless we personally are intimate with God and His undying and unfathomable love for us, personally strive for holiness and stand up for Christ and the word of God, and are willing to count the cost, then our Christianity is largely hollow and will be shown as such &#8211; this is from someone whose Christian walk was no less shallow. There is a real cost to dying to self and living for Christ, but it&#8217;s better than the cost of living for oneself.</p>
<p>Garth Penglase</p>
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		<title>By: david skinner</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-97263</link>
		<dc:creator>david skinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 05:19:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-97263</guid>
		<description>Thanks Dave; it&#039;s just that I wasn’t sure where you were coming from. It&#039;s good to confirm. It&#039;s a pity no one checked this out against the word of God:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exb53K2v4pk
David Skinner, UK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Dave; it&#8217;s just that I wasn’t sure where you were coming from. It&#8217;s good to confirm. It&#8217;s a pity no one checked this out against the word of God:<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exb53K2v4pk" title="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exb53K2v4pk" class="autohyperlink" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exb53K2v4pk</a><br />
David Skinner, UK</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Reid</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-97146</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 16:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-97146</guid>
		<description>Mr Skinner...... to clarify... I mean an oppurtunity for all christians to MINISTER ONE TO ANOTHER... we still need order and leaders.... refer to 1 corinthians....
Dave Reid</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Skinner&#8230;&#8230; to clarify&#8230; I mean an oppurtunity for all christians to MINISTER ONE TO ANOTHER&#8230; we still need order and leaders&#8230;. refer to 1 corinthians&#8230;.<br />
Dave Reid</p>
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		<title>By: Edi Giudetti</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-97125</link>
		<dc:creator>Edi Giudetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-97125</guid>
		<description>Glenda your words are well received, i fully agree as i note above.
Edi Giudetti.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glenda your words are well received, i fully agree as i note above.<br />
Edi Giudetti.</p>
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		<title>By: Edi Giudetti</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-97124</link>
		<dc:creator>Edi Giudetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-97124</guid>
		<description>Bill, indeed we need to do away with today’s wishy washy worldly ideas, but you are far too kind about what has transpired. Also please be careful, the idea that there are hundreds if not thousands of Godly pastors and leaders compared to the false ones is not a biblical perspective of the last days but a wishful thinking of today, the modern popular church is not in such a bad state because good biblical pastors outnumber the bad ones, the opposite is true.

Regarding Todd Bentley, the Scriptures (often disregarded by the Charismatic high priests of today) clearly state that it is “a wicked and ADULTEROUS generation that seeks for a sign” Mathew 16:4. But many who were deceived by this mans manifestations will no doubt excuse the public realization of his pagan state and claim that “it’s an attack of the devil”. But it’s not these deceived individuals I am grieved for, it is those that now reject God because they have relied so heavily on deceived men who believed a lie and not the Bible, those who rather trust their dreams and feelings, emotions and thoughts and attempt to wrest scripture to fit their presuppositions as opposed to allowing the clarity of scripture to speak of itself. 

&quot;For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.&quot; Matt 24:24

Iniquity such as adultery and deliberate deception will abound and turn those seeking truth away from God, but those that are deceived within these Churches may be further handed over to deeper deception because they refuse to search the scriptures, they do not have a love for Gods words but trust blindly and unquestioningly in their leaders as well as today’s so called “Christian TV”, they trust still in the very same deceived individuals who unwittingly turn others away from God and feed their flock will gaul.

The distinguishing heart of a Child of God is one that hears and loves Gods words, those not of God reject His words.

&quot;He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.&quot; John 8:47

But will people, held captive in this manner, wake up to the Todd Bentleys and Michael Guiglimuchi’s of this world, joyously ALL can, speaking to the Laodicean Church, the Church of the last days (today’s Church) Jesus says; &quot;Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me&quot; Revelation 3:20

Many pastors and Church leaders have been deceived for so long and have such a large investment in what they have taught and believed, and are so afraid of being clearly shown their error, they shy well away from the light. One thing is sure, it will take the greatest level of humility and brokenness before a holy God for any man so deceived to come to the light of Gods words. I personally believe it is never too late for such a man, &quot;a man shall never stand so tall than when he is on his knees&quot;, great men as this are not easily found, but pride is a prison that does not easily let go.
 
Edi Giudetti.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, indeed we need to do away with today’s wishy washy worldly ideas, but you are far too kind about what has transpired. Also please be careful, the idea that there are hundreds if not thousands of Godly pastors and leaders compared to the false ones is not a biblical perspective of the last days but a wishful thinking of today, the modern popular church is not in such a bad state because good biblical pastors outnumber the bad ones, the opposite is true.</p>
<p>Regarding Todd Bentley, the Scriptures (often disregarded by the Charismatic high priests of today) clearly state that it is “a wicked and ADULTEROUS generation that seeks for a sign” Mathew 16:4. But many who were deceived by this mans manifestations will no doubt excuse the public realization of his pagan state and claim that “it’s an attack of the devil”. But it’s not these deceived individuals I am grieved for, it is those that now reject God because they have relied so heavily on deceived men who believed a lie and not the Bible, those who rather trust their dreams and feelings, emotions and thoughts and attempt to wrest scripture to fit their presuppositions as opposed to allowing the clarity of scripture to speak of itself. </p>
<p>&#8220;For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.&#8221; Matt 24:24</p>
<p>Iniquity such as adultery and deliberate deception will abound and turn those seeking truth away from God, but those that are deceived within these Churches may be further handed over to deeper deception because they refuse to search the scriptures, they do not have a love for Gods words but trust blindly and unquestioningly in their leaders as well as today’s so called “Christian TV”, they trust still in the very same deceived individuals who unwittingly turn others away from God and feed their flock will gaul.</p>
<p>The distinguishing heart of a Child of God is one that hears and loves Gods words, those not of God reject His words.</p>
<p>&#8220;He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.&#8221; John 8:47</p>
<p>But will people, held captive in this manner, wake up to the Todd Bentleys and Michael Guiglimuchi’s of this world, joyously ALL can, speaking to the Laodicean Church, the Church of the last days (today’s Church) Jesus says; &#8220;Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me&#8221; Revelation 3:20</p>
<p>Many pastors and Church leaders have been deceived for so long and have such a large investment in what they have taught and believed, and are so afraid of being clearly shown their error, they shy well away from the light. One thing is sure, it will take the greatest level of humility and brokenness before a holy God for any man so deceived to come to the light of Gods words. I personally believe it is never too late for such a man, &#8220;a man shall never stand so tall than when he is on his knees&#8221;, great men as this are not easily found, but pride is a prison that does not easily let go.</p>
<p>Edi Giudetti.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenda Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-97121</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenda Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 12:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-97121</guid>
		<description>It saddens me to hear of another fall from grace of another Christian leader. It reminds me of the warnings of Jesus, and in the epistles, that in the last days many false leadership, prophets and deception will arise. 

Too long has the Body of Christ forgotten what happened to Ananias &amp; Sapphira. Jesus was also quick to condemn the scribes, pharisees and their like for their lies and deception. The message of salvation has for too long been watered down for fear offending people. Alongside this has been acceptance of sin in the church. Ultimately, we are responsible for our own sin. The tragedy is the casualties we leave in our wake long after we have sought and received forgiveness from God.

The other issue many have lost sight of is that revival will bypass those who condone or cover up sin. Jesus is yearning for a pure Bride. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the established church will not be the vehicle for revival unless and until sincere repentance comes from its leadership for what it has allowed the western church to become, and in Australia particularly. Otherwise, the event portrayed in Acts 5 will not be an isolated incident when revival comes. vs 11 says &quot; So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things&quot;. God will not be mocked or lied to. A timely reminder for us all to flee sin and seek righteousness instead.

Glenda Morgan, WA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It saddens me to hear of another fall from grace of another Christian leader. It reminds me of the warnings of Jesus, and in the epistles, that in the last days many false leadership, prophets and deception will arise. </p>
<p>Too long has the Body of Christ forgotten what happened to Ananias &amp; Sapphira. Jesus was also quick to condemn the scribes, pharisees and their like for their lies and deception. The message of salvation has for too long been watered down for fear offending people. Alongside this has been acceptance of sin in the church. Ultimately, we are responsible for our own sin. The tragedy is the casualties we leave in our wake long after we have sought and received forgiveness from God.</p>
<p>The other issue many have lost sight of is that revival will bypass those who condone or cover up sin. Jesus is yearning for a pure Bride. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the established church will not be the vehicle for revival unless and until sincere repentance comes from its leadership for what it has allowed the western church to become, and in Australia particularly. Otherwise, the event portrayed in Acts 5 will not be an isolated incident when revival comes. vs 11 says &#8221; So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things&#8221;. God will not be mocked or lied to. A timely reminder for us all to flee sin and seek righteousness instead.</p>
<p>Glenda Morgan, WA</p>
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		<title>By: david skinner</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-97065</link>
		<dc:creator>david skinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 06:07:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-97065</guid>
		<description>Forgive me Dave if I have misunderstood you but you seem to be suggesting that church should be without hierarchy, that it should be a democracy. The abuse of a position by a church leader should not, by my reading of the bible, be a signal to scrap leadership, otherwise why would Paul in the Epistles lay so much emphasis on describing the church as being like a human body and  give instructions and warnings to those in authority. Everyone in the church has a post to man especially the watchmen on the wall ( Ezekiel chapters 3&amp;33); we all have responsibilities laid on us according to GENDER and gifting. We all need to be constantly reminded that we live in a state of war in which accountability and faithful servant hood, both vertical and horizontal, is a minimum requirement. 
The danger lies in our constantly wanting to elevate  and glorify our leaders, instead of Jesus Christ. The veneration of the saints practised by the Roman Catholic Church is not peculiar to them. Protestant churches with their superstar teachers fall into the same trap. It is right and proper to celebrate what Christ has done in this or that life, but it is how they end and whether they complete the course that is important. When we arrive in Heaven we will be in for some surprises as to who is there and who is not - and who receives crowns and who does not. There may well be some up on the podium of whom there is no recorded history.
David Skinner, UK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgive me Dave if I have misunderstood you but you seem to be suggesting that church should be without hierarchy, that it should be a democracy. The abuse of a position by a church leader should not, by my reading of the bible, be a signal to scrap leadership, otherwise why would Paul in the Epistles lay so much emphasis on describing the church as being like a human body and  give instructions and warnings to those in authority. Everyone in the church has a post to man especially the watchmen on the wall ( Ezekiel chapters 3&amp;33); we all have responsibilities laid on us according to GENDER and gifting. We all need to be constantly reminded that we live in a state of war in which accountability and faithful servant hood, both vertical and horizontal, is a minimum requirement.<br />
The danger lies in our constantly wanting to elevate  and glorify our leaders, instead of Jesus Christ. The veneration of the saints practised by the Roman Catholic Church is not peculiar to them. Protestant churches with their superstar teachers fall into the same trap. It is right and proper to celebrate what Christ has done in this or that life, but it is how they end and whether they complete the course that is important. When we arrive in Heaven we will be in for some surprises as to who is there and who is not &#8211; and who receives crowns and who does not. There may well be some up on the podium of whom there is no recorded history.<br />
David Skinner, UK</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Reid</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/comment-page-1/#comment-97020</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 00:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/08/23/on-christian-leadership-failures/#comment-97020</guid>
		<description>Bill... You offer a great perspective... this information was handled quite well by the churches involved... Planetshakers and Hillsong both sent out an email to everyone in their congregations... before the article was run in the news.... this was great, all those who knew Mike personally was given a pastoral phone call to see how our reactions were... after they ticked the pastoral box with me, I began with anger ... at all the young people who will be effected and his family, Moreso his wife that was left in the dark.... now as a christian I AM WALKING IN FORGIVENESS.. I forgive Mike.... I love him.... we can still learn from this.... If you look at the church today we see &quot;CELEBRITY CULTURE&quot; has crept in.... I believe we need to go back to the AZUSA STREET way (Where modern day penticostalism began early 1900&#039;s) they had chairs in a circle and preacher was in the middle... however anyone could share a word.... CHURCH Should be about ministering ONE to Another .... not about &quot;THE SHOW&quot; lets get back to the heart of what church should be.... and Christians please forgive Mike--- we should be leading the way with forgiveness.. THE WORLD DEMANDS JUSTICE - We should CRY FORGIVENESS.
Dave Reid</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill&#8230; You offer a great perspective&#8230; this information was handled quite well by the churches involved&#8230; Planetshakers and Hillsong both sent out an email to everyone in their congregations&#8230; before the article was run in the news&#8230;. this was great, all those who knew Mike personally was given a pastoral phone call to see how our reactions were&#8230; after they ticked the pastoral box with me, I began with anger &#8230; at all the young people who will be effected and his family, Moreso his wife that was left in the dark&#8230;. now as a christian I AM WALKING IN FORGIVENESS.. I forgive Mike&#8230;. I love him&#8230;. we can still learn from this&#8230;. If you look at the church today we see &#8220;CELEBRITY CULTURE&#8221; has crept in&#8230;. I believe we need to go back to the AZUSA STREET way (Where modern day penticostalism began early 1900&#8217;s) they had chairs in a circle and preacher was in the middle&#8230; however anyone could share a word&#8230;. CHURCH Should be about ministering ONE to Another &#8230;. not about &#8220;THE SHOW&#8221; lets get back to the heart of what church should be&#8230;. and Christians please forgive Mike&#8212; we should be leading the way with forgiveness.. THE WORLD DEMANDS JUSTICE &#8211; We should CRY FORGIVENESS.<br />
Dave Reid</p>
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