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	<title>Comments on: The Religious War Against Marriage</title>
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	<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/</link>
	<description>Bill Muehlenberg&#039;s commentary on issues of the day...</description>
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		<title>By: Alyse</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76849</link>
		<dc:creator>Alyse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 00:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76849</guid>
		<description>Garth, 
You make some good points i guess, but im still unsure about the whole god thing. He just doesn&#039;t seem to have a big enough reputation for the name that he should carry if he indeed has done so much,
Alyse Porter, Melbourne</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Garth,<br />
You make some good points i guess, but im still unsure about the whole god thing. He just doesn&#8217;t seem to have a big enough reputation for the name that he should carry if he indeed has done so much,<br />
Alyse Porter, Melbourne</p>
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		<title>By: Garth</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76623</link>
		<dc:creator>Garth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 16:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76623</guid>
		<description>Alyse, if belief in God is foolish then you&#039;ll need to count the following scientists and inventors as foolish: Lord Kelvin (chemistry). Albert Einstein (physics/mathematics), Johannes Kepler, Sir Robert Boyle, Sir Isaac Newton (physics/mathematics/astronomy etc.), Carl Linnaeus (medicine/flora&amp;fauna classification method), Georges Cuvier (zoology/botany) - established anatomy and palaeontology), Michael Faraday (electricity), Louis Pasteur (chemist, scientist who has saved more lives than any other), Leonhard Euler (mathematics), Gregor Mendel, Samuel Morse, Charles Babbage [mathematician], Sir Joseph Lister (father of modern surgery) Francis Bacon (modern scientific method) Herschel, Pascal, Ramsay, Stokes, Dalton, Fleming, Maxwell etc etc etc etc etc... (hundreds more great scientists, many of whom have made the greatest and most far-reaching discoveries of mankind)

I could go on (and on) with a list of great men and women of immense intellect and creativity who all held a foundational belief in a creator. These listed are just a few of the scientists - you should see the list of great writers with formidable intellects such as C S Lewis and J R Tolkein, and the artists, statesmen, heroes, leaders etc. etc.

As Louis Pasteur said &quot;The more I study, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator&quot;.
and Sir Isaac Newton who declared &quot;... Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance.&quot;

And someone who you may know... while he may not state a belief in God, Steven Hawkings suggests &quot;One possible answer is to say God chose the initial configuration of the universe for reasons that we cannot hope to understand... The whole history of science has been the gradual realisation that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but they reflect a certain underlying order, which may have been divinely inspired.&quot;

Hawkings, like children, have enough intelligence to ask &quot;so  who made whatever was originally there in the first place?&quot;

Well, I guess you know best... I guess it must be a lot smarter just to swallow a lot of theories and go with what you&#039;re fed.

Garth Penglase</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alyse, if belief in God is foolish then you&#8217;ll need to count the following scientists and inventors as foolish: Lord Kelvin (chemistry). Albert Einstein (physics/mathematics), Johannes Kepler, Sir Robert Boyle, Sir Isaac Newton (physics/mathematics/astronomy etc.), Carl Linnaeus (medicine/flora&amp;fauna classification method), Georges Cuvier (zoology/botany) &#8211; established anatomy and palaeontology), Michael Faraday (electricity), Louis Pasteur (chemist, scientist who has saved more lives than any other), Leonhard Euler (mathematics), Gregor Mendel, Samuel Morse, Charles Babbage [mathematician], Sir Joseph Lister (father of modern surgery) Francis Bacon (modern scientific method) Herschel, Pascal, Ramsay, Stokes, Dalton, Fleming, Maxwell etc etc etc etc etc&#8230; (hundreds more great scientists, many of whom have made the greatest and most far-reaching discoveries of mankind)</p>
<p>I could go on (and on) with a list of great men and women of immense intellect and creativity who all held a foundational belief in a creator. These listed are just a few of the scientists &#8211; you should see the list of great writers with formidable intellects such as C S Lewis and J R Tolkein, and the artists, statesmen, heroes, leaders etc. etc.</p>
<p>As Louis Pasteur said &#8220;The more I study, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator&#8221;.<br />
and Sir Isaac Newton who declared &#8220;&#8230; Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance.&#8221;</p>
<p>And someone who you may know&#8230; while he may not state a belief in God, Steven Hawkings suggests &#8220;One possible answer is to say God chose the initial configuration of the universe for reasons that we cannot hope to understand&#8230; The whole history of science has been the gradual realisation that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but they reflect a certain underlying order, which may have been divinely inspired.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hawkings, like children, have enough intelligence to ask &#8220;so  who made whatever was originally there in the first place?&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, I guess you know best&#8230; I guess it must be a lot smarter just to swallow a lot of theories and go with what you&#8217;re fed.</p>
<p>Garth Penglase</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Reid</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76553</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 15:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76553</guid>
		<description>Alyse, the world is too complex to have it just happen. Even though you dont think God exists... He does.. even if you dont believe in him...He Believes in you....
Dave Reid</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alyse, the world is too complex to have it just happen. Even though you dont think God exists&#8230; He does.. even if you dont believe in him&#8230;He Believes in you&#8230;.<br />
Dave Reid</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Marriott</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76516</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Marriott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 00:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76516</guid>
		<description>Steve Angelino, 
It is painfully obvious that you commented just to have a dig against a Christian website. What is your real opinion regarding the issue here? Try speaking without trying to sound politically above it either. The fact is that the sweetest freedoms come through obedience. Only harm comes through raging against God. We have morals, values and commands not to take our fun away, but to avert us from the hurt that comes from doing something wrong. I wish those in politcal arenas understood such a simple principle.
Adrian Marriott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve Angelino,<br />
It is painfully obvious that you commented just to have a dig against a Christian website. What is your real opinion regarding the issue here? Try speaking without trying to sound politically above it either. The fact is that the sweetest freedoms come through obedience. Only harm comes through raging against God. We have morals, values and commands not to take our fun away, but to avert us from the hurt that comes from doing something wrong. I wish those in politcal arenas understood such a simple principle.<br />
Adrian Marriott</p>
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		<title>By: Alyse Porter</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76512</link>
		<dc:creator>Alyse Porter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 23:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76512</guid>
		<description>I disagree with dave reid, i dont really think that God does exist, thats just foolish thinking.
Alyse Porter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with dave reid, i dont really think that God does exist, thats just foolish thinking.<br />
Alyse Porter</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Reid</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76456</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 14:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76456</guid>
		<description>I agree with your sentiments Bill, I do not think that Steve from WA has a strong argument. I do not understand why there is so much worldview pushed here. Let us get back to the facts. God is real; there is evidence to support that fact. ‘People are created in God’s image’ This is a quote from the Old testament. Therefore God sets a standard for people to live by and abide by, He created us, and expects to live a certain way. I am not pushing a viewpoint against homosexuals, their lifestyle choice is ultimately a choice. If it is not God’s standard. It should be choice outside what God wants for our lives. Should I even dare use the age old cliché saying, “God created Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve”.
Dave Reid</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your sentiments Bill, I do not think that Steve from WA has a strong argument. I do not understand why there is so much worldview pushed here. Let us get back to the facts. God is real; there is evidence to support that fact. ‘People are created in God’s image’ This is a quote from the Old testament. Therefore God sets a standard for people to live by and abide by, He created us, and expects to live a certain way. I am not pushing a viewpoint against homosexuals, their lifestyle choice is ultimately a choice. If it is not God’s standard. It should be choice outside what God wants for our lives. Should I even dare use the age old cliché saying, “God created Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve”.<br />
Dave Reid</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76395</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 04:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76395</guid>
		<description>Thanks Steve

You may be wrong, but at least you are consistently wrong! As an atheist who seems to religiously scour this website, looking for yet another thing you can argue about for whatever reason, you should know that there is nothing in the Manifesto that I radically disagree with. I too have said that Christianity is ultimately above party politics, and I too have warned about overly politicising the faith. And just where on this site do I extol the health and wealth gospel?

There are of course some areas in this Manifesto which I would have minor differences with, as would be expected. The writers of the Manifesto would also expect, and encourage, such areas of disagreement and discussion. And as I said, I will soon write up an article assessing the Manifesto.

But it mostly summarises my views, and those of most Evangelicals. Sorry, but you will have to try harder to find major divisions to exploit, when they in fact are just not there.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Steve</p>
<p>You may be wrong, but at least you are consistently wrong! As an atheist who seems to religiously scour this website, looking for yet another thing you can argue about for whatever reason, you should know that there is nothing in the Manifesto that I radically disagree with. I too have said that Christianity is ultimately above party politics, and I too have warned about overly politicising the faith. And just where on this site do I extol the health and wealth gospel?</p>
<p>There are of course some areas in this Manifesto which I would have minor differences with, as would be expected. The writers of the Manifesto would also expect, and encourage, such areas of disagreement and discussion. And as I said, I will soon write up an article assessing the Manifesto.</p>
<p>But it mostly summarises my views, and those of most Evangelicals. Sorry, but you will have to try harder to find major divisions to exploit, when they in fact are just not there.</p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: Betty Kee</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76242</link>
		<dc:creator>Betty Kee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 04:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76242</guid>
		<description>It must be hard for someone like  Mrs Muriel Porter who has fought tooth and nail for so many years on the subject of homosexuality and has convinced herself to a point where she no longer see the biblical truth but her own distorted view and belief system to change.

It is so clear what Bible teaches on sexuality and the church will not compromise on same sex marriage yet the Muriel Porters of this world will continue to march on this senseless path of sin.

The only way they can see the truth is when their spiritual blindness is unveiled by God. Then only will they know the truth and the truth will set them free.

Betty Kee</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It must be hard for someone like  Mrs Muriel Porter who has fought tooth and nail for so many years on the subject of homosexuality and has convinced herself to a point where she no longer see the biblical truth but her own distorted view and belief system to change.</p>
<p>It is so clear what Bible teaches on sexuality and the church will not compromise on same sex marriage yet the Muriel Porters of this world will continue to march on this senseless path of sin.</p>
<p>The only way they can see the truth is when their spiritual blindness is unveiled by God. Then only will they know the truth and the truth will set them free.</p>
<p>Betty Kee</p>
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		<title>By: Winy Yiska</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76239</link>
		<dc:creator>Winy Yiska</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76239</guid>
		<description>When it comes to stand on the biblical truths about the modern issues – including homosexuality – strangely, people do get mix message from the biblical interpretation.

We are called to express the truth in its most basic and simple terms – sin is sin; nothing more, nothing less.  If God called homosexuality as sin, we should do too. Such a prompt for us, not to be conformed to the pattern of this world, but rather to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.

God hates sin, but He loves the sinner, as what has been echoed by others. We choose to love the people, and yet, we are to detest the thing that God despises.

Winy Yiska</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it comes to stand on the biblical truths about the modern issues – including homosexuality – strangely, people do get mix message from the biblical interpretation.</p>
<p>We are called to express the truth in its most basic and simple terms – sin is sin; nothing more, nothing less.  If God called homosexuality as sin, we should do too. Such a prompt for us, not to be conformed to the pattern of this world, but rather to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.</p>
<p>God hates sin, but He loves the sinner, as what has been echoed by others. We choose to love the people, and yet, we are to detest the thing that God despises.</p>
<p>Winy Yiska</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Angelino, WA</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-76223</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Angelino, WA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 02:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/05/06/the-religious-war-against-marriage/#comment-76223</guid>
		<description>Bill,

Seems to me that the Manifesto calls for a Reformation of Evangelicalism, questions the &quot;prosperity gospel&quot; preached by many evangelical churches, and calls for a retreat from the dangerous culture wars that have divided America.

&lt;i&gt;... we have become known for commercial, diluted, and feel-good gospels of health, wealth, human potential, and religious happy talk, each of which is indistinguishable from the passing fashions of the surrounding world.&lt;/i&gt;

It is also very critical of the alignment of religious belief with one side of politics or the other:
&lt;i&gt;The other error, made by both the religious left and the religious right in recent decades, is to politicize faith, using faith to express essentially political points that have lost touch with biblical truth. That way faith loses its independence, the church becomes &quot;the regime at prayer&quot;, Christians become &quot;useful idiots&quot; for one political party or another, and the Christian faith becomes an ideology in its purest form. Christian beliefs are used as weapons for political interests.

Christians from both sides of the political spectrum, left as well as right, have made the mistake of politicizing faith; and it would be no improvement to respond to a weakening of the religious right with a rejuvenation of the religious left. Whichever side it comes from, a politicized faith is faithless, foolish, and disastrous for the church – and disastrous first and foremost for Christian reasons rather than constitutional reasons.&lt;/i&gt;

If you endorse it, you must have given it only a cursory read. It seems to be at odds with positions you have consistently espoused.

Steve Angelino, WA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill,</p>
<p>Seems to me that the Manifesto calls for a Reformation of Evangelicalism, questions the &#8220;prosperity gospel&#8221; preached by many evangelical churches, and calls for a retreat from the dangerous culture wars that have divided America.</p>
<p><i>&#8230; we have become known for commercial, diluted, and feel-good gospels of health, wealth, human potential, and religious happy talk, each of which is indistinguishable from the passing fashions of the surrounding world.</i></p>
<p>It is also very critical of the alignment of religious belief with one side of politics or the other:<br />
<i>The other error, made by both the religious left and the religious right in recent decades, is to politicize faith, using faith to express essentially political points that have lost touch with biblical truth. That way faith loses its independence, the church becomes &#8220;the regime at prayer&#8221;, Christians become &#8220;useful idiots&#8221; for one political party or another, and the Christian faith becomes an ideology in its purest form. Christian beliefs are used as weapons for political interests.</p>
<p>Christians from both sides of the political spectrum, left as well as right, have made the mistake of politicizing faith; and it would be no improvement to respond to a weakening of the religious right with a rejuvenation of the religious left. Whichever side it comes from, a politicized faith is faithless, foolish, and disastrous for the church – and disastrous first and foremost for Christian reasons rather than constitutional reasons.</i></p>
<p>If you endorse it, you must have given it only a cursory read. It seems to be at odds with positions you have consistently espoused.</p>
<p>Steve Angelino, WA</p>
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