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	<title>Comments on: Scripture, Theology and Public Policy: A Case Study</title>
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	<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/</link>
	<description>Bill Muehlenberg&#039;s commentary on issues of the day...</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Whennen</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-74940</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Whennen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 04:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-74940</guid>
		<description>Bill

Two articles that you may desire to read.....divorce remarriage and how it directly relates to the same-sex marriage or relationship register immorality.....

When Christ was Gay
http://www.elroy.net/ehr/gay.html

The Debate over ‘Same-Sex Marriage’
http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/family/the_debate_over_samesex_marria_1.aspx

Agape, Michael Whennen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill</p>
<p>Two articles that you may desire to read&#8230;..divorce remarriage and how it directly relates to the same-sex marriage or relationship register immorality&#8230;..</p>
<p>When Christ was Gay<br />
<a href="http://www.elroy.net/ehr/gay.html" rel="nofollow">www.elroy.net/ehr/gay.html</a></p>
<p>The Debate over ‘Same-Sex Marriage’<br />
<a href="http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/family/the_debate_over_samesex_marria_1.aspx" rel="nofollow">www.visionforumministries.org/issues/family/the_debate_over_samesex_marria_1.aspx</a></p>
<p>Agape, Michael Whennen</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-69905</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 09:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-69905</guid>
		<description>Thanks Michael

As I said in my article, it was not my intention to specifically discuss the whole contentious issue of marriage, divorce and remarriage, but how it indirectly might apply to an argument for same-sex relationship recognition. It is certainly a contentious and difficult issue. It may not be the place here however to fully get into it. Perhaps an article more specifically on that topic in the fiutire would allow such debate to better take place.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Michael</p>
<p>As I said in my article, it was not my intention to specifically discuss the whole contentious issue of marriage, divorce and remarriage, but how it indirectly might apply to an argument for same-sex relationship recognition. It is certainly a contentious and difficult issue. It may not be the place here however to fully get into it. Perhaps an article more specifically on that topic in the fiutire would allow such debate to better take place.</p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Whennen</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-69875</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Whennen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 06:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-69875</guid>
		<description>Bill,
Faught with danger is correct.

I would like to draw your attention to Dr Joseph Webb&#039;s book, Till Death Do Us Part?, particularly to the application of verses in Jeremiah 3 in respect to Deut. 24.

My comment...
Where do we stop and start with all this, we could support a register of same-sex unions only if it had the same status as perhaps a register of pedophiles so the government / community could monitor and administer this group of unrepentant sexually immoral people. We could add the rest of the sexually immoral who will not inherit the Kingdom of God, I will be courageous and say we could include those people who have married, divorced, remarried (MDR) yet are deceived especially by the Church.

ALso, may I cite the so called Matthew exceptions…
Matthew 5:32 - saving for he cause of fornication
The most accurate translations, specifically written to the Jews, in regards to specific incident of sex prior to marriage in the betrothal period. Lets look at Mary &amp; Joseph, where the penalty under Mosanic law would be stoning, however he could write her a bill of divorcement, Moses concession.
So Jesus is saying to the Jews if you wish to stay under the law, the penality for Fornication/Adultery is stoning, however who amongst you is going to cast the first stone?? Moses allows a bill of divorce, not God.
So the penality today for a would be excommunication, not stoning, for a unrepentant Christian who continues a lifestyle of Fornication (sex prior to marriage), or lifestyle of Adultery (sex with someone other than your covenant/first spouse) This would include all those people within the Church body who live sexually immoral lifestyles.
Matthew 19:9 is directly affected by the explaination…given for Matthew 5:32
1 Cor. 7:15 if treated as an exception cause would mean Apostle Paul was perhaps schizophrenic, which he was not!
The understanding of under bondage is not in respect to the marriage covenant but rather under bondage to be obedient to perhaps her husbands unholy demands, which would result in her sinning.

Michael Whennen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill,<br />
Faught with danger is correct.</p>
<p>I would like to draw your attention to Dr Joseph Webb&#8217;s book, Till Death Do Us Part?, particularly to the application of verses in Jeremiah 3 in respect to Deut. 24.</p>
<p>My comment&#8230;<br />
Where do we stop and start with all this, we could support a register of same-sex unions only if it had the same status as perhaps a register of pedophiles so the government / community could monitor and administer this group of unrepentant sexually immoral people. We could add the rest of the sexually immoral who will not inherit the Kingdom of God, I will be courageous and say we could include those people who have married, divorced, remarried (MDR) yet are deceived especially by the Church.</p>
<p>ALso, may I cite the so called Matthew exceptions…<br />
Matthew 5:32 &#8211; saving for he cause of fornication<br />
The most accurate translations, specifically written to the Jews, in regards to specific incident of sex prior to marriage in the betrothal period. Lets look at Mary &#038; Joseph, where the penalty under Mosanic law would be stoning, however he could write her a bill of divorcement, Moses concession.<br />
So Jesus is saying to the Jews if you wish to stay under the law, the penality for Fornication/Adultery is stoning, however who amongst you is going to cast the first stone?? Moses allows a bill of divorce, not God.<br />
So the penality today for a would be excommunication, not stoning, for a unrepentant Christian who continues a lifestyle of Fornication (sex prior to marriage), or lifestyle of Adultery (sex with someone other than your covenant/first spouse) This would include all those people within the Church body who live sexually immoral lifestyles.<br />
Matthew 19:9 is directly affected by the explaination…given for Matthew 5:32<br />
1 Cor. 7:15 if treated as an exception cause would mean Apostle Paul was perhaps schizophrenic, which he was not!<br />
The understanding of under bondage is not in respect to the marriage covenant but rather under bondage to be obedient to perhaps her husbands unholy demands, which would result in her sinning.</p>
<p>Michael Whennen</p>
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		<title>By: david skinner</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-69548</link>
		<dc:creator>david skinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 08:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-69548</guid>
		<description>The homosexual lobby will never cease to try to associate themselves with this or that group of people who are acceptable or gain our sympathy. If it is not black people, it is slaves, or the disabled; they are even desperately searching for people in history such as Abraham Lincoln and Florence Nightingale to claim as “their people” .

Frequently one hears from those politicians who would promote the gay life-style, and sadly from well-meaning clergy, irritation with those who concentrate on the sexual aspect of homosexuality, preferring rather to present the personal, relational and romantic side; but even if gays are forming civil partnerships the evidence shows that they do not really want to replicate traditional marriage. When the gay minority are offered marriage there is not exactly a stampede. The evidence shows that marriage does not suit their life-style. They deeply resent the homophobic implications of a negative view of homosexual practices which don’t mirror conventional heterosexual marriage practice. Freed of the constraints of marriage, gays are presently free to explore guiltless pleasures of sexual abandonment. After all if one were to criticise in any way their sexual behaviour, one would immediately be accused of being a homopobe. This is really what they are after:  http://www.gaydar.com/  And guess what the motto of this outfit is? WHAT YOU WANT, WHEN YOU WANT IT.
The very last thing that born again homosexuals are looking for is a personal relationship or even a person. They want a pleasure for which a man happens to be necessary piece of equipment. Having consumed the sexual pleasure they are happy to discard the body for another. 

What homosexuals want is the acceptance and recognition, the goods and services associated with marriage but not the essential nature of it. But it is heterosexual-like marriage which is easiest to sell to the wider heterosexual community. Even those who want marriage - especially gay men - tend not to see a need to restrict their sexual activity to their ménage:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=408666&amp;in_page_id=1879   (Barrie Drewitt and Tony Barlow on Gaydar)
 
But if homosexuals are given this public blessing. why should not those who engage in incest, polyamory, bestiality and sex with objects also not be tolerated and included?

But we should cease to talk about homosexuality which is a new nomenclature and instead concentrate on the behaviour like sodomy fisting, rimming, water sports, bondage, felching, scats, coprophilia, sado-masochism and giving the “gift” of AIDs to another. Soon these activities will be common to heterosexuals as well. Like the cities of Sodom and Gomorra and ancient Greece there will be no distinction between the two. After all, is this not what bi-sexuality and multi-sexuality are?

David Skinner, UK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The homosexual lobby will never cease to try to associate themselves with this or that group of people who are acceptable or gain our sympathy. If it is not black people, it is slaves, or the disabled; they are even desperately searching for people in history such as Abraham Lincoln and Florence Nightingale to claim as “their people” .</p>
<p>Frequently one hears from those politicians who would promote the gay life-style, and sadly from well-meaning clergy, irritation with those who concentrate on the sexual aspect of homosexuality, preferring rather to present the personal, relational and romantic side; but even if gays are forming civil partnerships the evidence shows that they do not really want to replicate traditional marriage. When the gay minority are offered marriage there is not exactly a stampede. The evidence shows that marriage does not suit their life-style. They deeply resent the homophobic implications of a negative view of homosexual practices which don’t mirror conventional heterosexual marriage practice. Freed of the constraints of marriage, gays are presently free to explore guiltless pleasures of sexual abandonment. After all if one were to criticise in any way their sexual behaviour, one would immediately be accused of being a homopobe. This is really what they are after:  <a href="http://www.gaydar.com/" rel="nofollow">www.gaydar.com/</a>  And guess what the motto of this outfit is? WHAT YOU WANT, WHEN YOU WANT IT.<br />
The very last thing that born again homosexuals are looking for is a personal relationship or even a person. They want a pleasure for which a man happens to be necessary piece of equipment. Having consumed the sexual pleasure they are happy to discard the body for another. </p>
<p>What homosexuals want is the acceptance and recognition, the goods and services associated with marriage but not the essential nature of it. But it is heterosexual-like marriage which is easiest to sell to the wider heterosexual community. Even those who want marriage &#8211; especially gay men &#8211; tend not to see a need to restrict their sexual activity to their ménage:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=408666&#038;in_page_id=1879" rel="nofollow">www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=408666&#038;in_page_id=1879</a>   (Barrie Drewitt and Tony Barlow on Gaydar)</p>
<p>But if homosexuals are given this public blessing. why should not those who engage in incest, polyamory, bestiality and sex with objects also not be tolerated and included?</p>
<p>But we should cease to talk about homosexuality which is a new nomenclature and instead concentrate on the behaviour like sodomy fisting, rimming, water sports, bondage, felching, scats, coprophilia, sado-masochism and giving the “gift” of AIDs to another. Soon these activities will be common to heterosexuals as well. Like the cities of Sodom and Gomorra and ancient Greece there will be no distinction between the two. After all, is this not what bi-sexuality and multi-sexuality are?</p>
<p>David Skinner, UK</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-69496</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 02:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-69496</guid>
		<description>Thanks John
Very clever and astute comment.
Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks John<br />
Very clever and astute comment.<br />
Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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		<title>By: John Nelson</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-69494</link>
		<dc:creator>John Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 01:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-69494</guid>
		<description>In divorce God made allowance for what he had joined together to be separated in certain circumstances. The homosexual lobby want what God has separated to be joined.

John Nelson</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In divorce God made allowance for what he had joined together to be separated in certain circumstances. The homosexual lobby want what God has separated to be joined.</p>
<p>John Nelson</p>
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		<title>By: Stan Fishley</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-69463</link>
		<dc:creator>Stan Fishley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 22:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-69463</guid>
		<description>Bill, 
Luther showed that the Bible has a nose of wax and therefore it can be pointed in any direction to prove your case. Yet according to Wolfhart Pannenberg the Bible is against homosexuality at every turn.
Stan Fishley</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill,<br />
Luther showed that the Bible has a nose of wax and therefore it can be pointed in any direction to prove your case. Yet according to Wolfhart Pannenberg the Bible is against homosexuality at every turn.<br />
Stan Fishley</p>
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		<title>By: Ewan</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-69402</link>
		<dc:creator>Ewan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-69402</guid>
		<description>Bill, totally agree with you on this. Can anyone tell me when and how sodomy became criminalised in the west and what were the reasons for it? Perhaps this history might be relevant to those Christian groups who now lobby for state approval of homosexuality.

I think the church dropped the ball in failing to oppose state recognition for unmarried defacto or cohabiting couples. Now the concept of &#039;living in sin&#039; is almost forgotten in our society. The state should no more recognise unmarried couples than it should same-sex couples.

Ewan McDonald.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, totally agree with you on this. Can anyone tell me when and how sodomy became criminalised in the west and what were the reasons for it? Perhaps this history might be relevant to those Christian groups who now lobby for state approval of homosexuality.</p>
<p>I think the church dropped the ball in failing to oppose state recognition for unmarried defacto or cohabiting couples. Now the concept of &#8216;living in sin&#8217; is almost forgotten in our society. The state should no more recognise unmarried couples than it should same-sex couples.</p>
<p>Ewan McDonald.</p>
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		<title>By: Stan Fishley</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-69379</link>
		<dc:creator>Stan Fishley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-69379</guid>
		<description>Bill, may I add a few thoughts? Is the relationship between a higher level of depression, AIDS, other STD&#039;s, suicides, etc, and homosexuality a causal relationship or coincidence? Is gayness life or is it part of our death culture?
Is it any wonder that the Bible describes this practice as an abomination? How can secularists promote such a curse? How can Christians seek to legalise what the Bible says is an abomination?
Stan Fishley</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, may I add a few thoughts? Is the relationship between a higher level of depression, AIDS, other STD&#8217;s, suicides, etc, and homosexuality a causal relationship or coincidence? Is gayness life or is it part of our death culture?<br />
Is it any wonder that the Bible describes this practice as an abomination? How can secularists promote such a curse? How can Christians seek to legalise what the Bible says is an abomination?<br />
Stan Fishley</p>
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		<title>By: John Angelico</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/comment-page-1/#comment-69329</link>
		<dc:creator>John Angelico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 08:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/04/scripture-theology-and-public-policy-a-case-study/#comment-69329</guid>
		<description>Bill, the same problem of Christians capitulating to the world arose way way back when artificial contraception was the debate.

It was one of those areas where the believer was assumed to take charge (scientifically - ha!) of an area of life previously left in God&#039;s hands.

Now we live with the consequences of &quot;playing God&quot; at one end of the life spectrum (both in IVF and in abortion!) as well as having opened the door to the same thing at the other end (euthanasia).

Each of these involves tinkering with how much we submit to the authority of God&#039;s Word.

John Angelico</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, the same problem of Christians capitulating to the world arose way way back when artificial contraception was the debate.</p>
<p>It was one of those areas where the believer was assumed to take charge (scientifically &#8211; ha!) of an area of life previously left in God&#8217;s hands.</p>
<p>Now we live with the consequences of &#8220;playing God&#8221; at one end of the life spectrum (both in IVF and in abortion!) as well as having opened the door to the same thing at the other end (euthanasia).</p>
<p>Each of these involves tinkering with how much we submit to the authority of God&#8217;s Word.</p>
<p>John Angelico</p>
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