Comments on: When Foolishness Abounds http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:27:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-66670 david skinner Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:59:32 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-66670 Wow, Edi. That's no waffling. David Skinner, UK Wow, Edi. That’s no waffling.
David Skinner, UK

]]> By: Edi Giudetti http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-66355 Edi Giudetti Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:04:39 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-66355 Thanks Jonathan The translation of the verse you used gets the gist of what you are speaking of. Indeed these people will not inherit the Kingdom of God. I was making the point that many people today are confused about what the Bible says because the Bible translations they use are deliberately vague. For example, Dr Virginia Mollenkott is both the Stylist for the NIV and a self confessed lesbian. Does this impact the reasons why such ancient words like Sodomite or fornication do not appear in any of the 'user friendly' "bibles" today? It is specifically why people say <i>“Jesus (or the Bible) said nothing against homosexual behavior.”</i> In their Bibles it simply does not appear, therefore rather than reject the Bible as a whole, they misapply it. Sample text And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel. 1 Kings 14:24 AV <b>Compare</b> There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites. 1 Ki 14:24 NIV Now I would have the freedom to practice my perversion without need of repentance because I'm not a <b>'male prostitute'. </b> Everywhere the word Sodomite appears, the NIV mistranslates 'Male shrine Prostitute' Any wonder why we have practicing homosexual ministers sharing the walk of shame/pride of the Mardigras. Or why so many people, particularly young people, engage in sex outside marriage, their bibles say 'immoral'. Now what is "moral" for you is not "moral" for me. The word moral is subjective and determined by the mores of the culture, but the word "fornication" means <i>consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other</i> -Websters 2003. Pretty hard to reinterpret that and give yourself license. Sorry for waffling Jon, but that was the point I was trying to make. Thanks again for your tireless work in your ministry, it's great to see you contribute to these discussions. Edi Giudetti Thanks Jonathan

The translation of the verse you used gets the gist of what you are speaking of. Indeed these people will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

I was making the point that many people today are confused about what the Bible says because the Bible translations they use are deliberately vague.

For example, Dr Virginia Mollenkott is both the Stylist for the NIV and a self confessed lesbian. Does this impact the reasons why such ancient words like Sodomite or fornication do not appear in any of the ‘user friendly’ “bibles” today?

It is specifically why people say “Jesus (or the Bible) said nothing against homosexual behavior.” In their Bibles it simply does not appear, therefore rather than reject the Bible as a whole, they misapply it.

Sample text

And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
1 Kings 14:24 AV

Compare

There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites.
1 Ki 14:24 NIV

Now I would have the freedom to practice my perversion without need of repentance because I’m not a ‘male prostitute’.

Everywhere the word Sodomite appears, the NIV mistranslates ‘Male shrine Prostitute’

Any wonder why we have practicing homosexual ministers sharing the walk of shame/pride of the Mardigras.

Or why so many people, particularly young people, engage in sex outside marriage, their bibles say ‘immoral’. Now what is “moral” for you is not “moral” for me. The word moral is subjective and determined by the mores of the culture, but the word “fornication” means consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
-Websters 2003.

Pretty hard to reinterpret that and give yourself license.

Sorry for waffling Jon, but that was the point I was trying to make.

Thanks again for your tireless work in your ministry, it’s great to see you contribute to these discussions.

Edi Giudetti

]]> By: Jonathan Sarfati http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-65762 Jonathan Sarfati Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:16:54 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-65762 Edi, glad my work has been helpful. Was there anything wrong with the translation of the <i>particular</i> verses I used? And this translation is also very clear that homosexual behaviour is a perversion even if it doesn't use the word "sodomites". E.g. those who are unrepentant of sexually immorality and homosexual acts are among those who will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9). And yes, I most definitely do agree that Scripure cannot be broken. Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane Edi, glad my work has been helpful.

Was there anything wrong with the translation of the particular verses I used? And this translation is also very clear that homosexual behaviour is a perversion even if it doesn’t use the word “sodomites”. E.g. those who are unrepentant of sexually immorality and homosexual acts are among those who will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9).

And yes, I most definitely do agree that Scripure cannot be broken.

Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

]]> By: Edi Giudetti http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-65746 Edi Giudetti Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:30:00 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-65746 Jonathan, firstly I just want to say thank you for all the work you do, its been a blessing to me over the years and I am sure to many people. Just a small, seemingly insignificant concern here though, do you really believe the "Scriptures cannot be broken"? I just ask this because after quoting this very portion of scripture you then quote from a "version" that has over 64,000 words deleted or changed. Worth thinking about. Maybe thats why people think the Bible has nothing or little to say about this issue as all references to "Fornication" and "sodomites" is removed from todays "scholars" versions. Indeed we discover the Bibles of today are more like blunt clubs than sharp swords! I agree with your comments however. God bless, Edi Giudetti Jonathan, firstly I just want to say thank you for all the work you do, its been a blessing to me over the years and I am sure to many people.

Just a small, seemingly insignificant concern here though, do you really believe the “Scriptures cannot be broken”? I just ask this because after quoting this very portion of scripture you then quote from a “version” that has over 64,000 words deleted or changed.

Worth thinking about.

Maybe thats why people think the Bible has nothing or little to say about this issue as all references to “Fornication” and “sodomites” is removed from todays “scholars” versions.

Indeed we discover the Bibles of today are more like blunt clubs than sharp swords!

I agree with your comments however.

God bless, Edi Giudetti

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-64196 david skinner Wed, 05 Mar 2008 14:32:25 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-64196 Jonathan, I don’t know if you would sympathise with the way your reflection on the mantra, “ Jesus never said anything about homosexuality,” reminds me of the High Way Code never says anything about not trying to drive my car or pedal my cycle through people’s back gardens or upside down in the sea? It is assumed that I understand that driving a car is a smaller component of a much larger transport system . In the same way, the Bible’s statements about married couples are made with reference to a larger system of social order and authority, the family, community and ultimately a new society, all created by God. Homosexual coupling belong to system that would deny God’s truth about order, authority existence and morality. Homosexuality is the weapon being used to destroy this greater system. David Skinner, UK Jonathan, I don’t know if you would sympathise with the way your reflection on the mantra, “ Jesus never said anything about homosexuality,” reminds me of the High Way Code never says anything about not trying to drive my car or pedal my cycle through people’s back gardens or upside down in the sea? It is assumed that I understand that driving a car is a smaller component of a much larger transport system . In the same way, the Bible’s statements about married couples are made with reference to a larger system of social order and authority, the family, community and ultimately a new society, all created by God.
Homosexual coupling belong to system that would deny God’s truth about order, authority existence and morality. Homosexuality is the weapon being used to destroy this greater system.

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: Jonathan Sarfati http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-64073 Jonathan Sarfati Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:48:22 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-64073 The mantra is sure to come from these traitors to the Gospel: "Jesus said nothing against homosexual behaviour." Of course, this is either ignorant or deceitful. First of all, Jesus implicitly condemned it with "Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), since Scripture unequivocally does condemn this. But He also condemned it explicitly in Matthew 19: <blockquote> 3 Some Pharisees came to him [Jesus] to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4 "Haven’t you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’, [NOTE: not male and male, or female and female] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."</blockquote> Jesus was citing Genesis 1:27 and 2:24, and endorsing the original created intention of marriage. Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane The mantra is sure to come from these traitors to the Gospel: “Jesus said nothing against homosexual behaviour.” Of course, this is either ignorant or deceitful. First of all, Jesus implicitly condemned it with “Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35), since Scripture unequivocally does condemn this. But He also condemned it explicitly in Matthew 19:

3 Some Pharisees came to him [Jesus] to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’, [NOTE: not male and male, or female and female]
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Jesus was citing Genesis 1:27 and 2:24, and endorsing the original created intention of marriage.

Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

]]> By: Allan Chapple http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-63374 Allan Chapple Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:34:09 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-63374 I concur 100%, this division has gone on long enough & is sickening, disgusting. It contradicts the "whole word of GOD" 1,000%. Let GOD be found true. Allan Chapple I concur 100%, this division has gone on long enough & is sickening, disgusting. It contradicts the “whole word of GOD” 1,000%. Let GOD be found true.
Allan Chapple

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-63356 david skinner Sat, 01 Mar 2008 08:07:31 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-63356 I make no apology if this appears to be a rant but some might think that due to the amount of links to homosexual criminality that I have posted above, that am an obsessive, homophobic bigot. Who knows? But let the evidence speak for itself; I didn’t make it up. My point is that Christians in their desperate fear of being branded as uncompassionate, excluding and all he rest of the unthinking twaddle, allow their consciences to become paralysed - with the consequence that justice and truth are silenced. Let us not forget that it was because of our own idolatry, adultery, drunkenness, slander, swindling, gossip, as well as sexual sins like homosexuality, that Jesus Christ came to disarm and disempower this kind of behaviour by dying on the cross. Let also not forget that when he returns, violence indeed will be directed at those of us who continue in these practices. Homosexuality as far as sin and eternity is concerned is no worse than those of heterosexuals, but the earthly consequences in terms of mental, emotional, physical and social disorders are. The records show that homosexual behaviour does not have the balance, the inbuilt breaking mechanism and governing element that is supplied by the female, which is why the behaviour of gay parades, like the Folsom Street Fair, will inevitably become more and more extreme. Like the thief on the cross, I confess that I am a sinner in need of grace and mercy, but I make no apology for my intense dislike of homosexual practice, or attempting to expose those who would flaunt their predilections by calling evil good, good evil, or who put darkness for light and light for darkness or who call normal natural and natural normal, or tolerance intolerance and intolerance tolerance. It is not homosexuality per se that is the evil but that it has become an instrument for destroying Truth, Reason and God’s created order. Far from apologising it is time to be clearing the temple - starting with ourselves. David Skinner, UK I make no apology if this appears to be a rant but some might think that due to the amount of links to homosexual criminality that I have posted above, that am an obsessive, homophobic bigot. Who knows? But let the evidence speak for itself; I didn’t make it up.
My point is that Christians in their desperate fear of being branded as uncompassionate, excluding and all he rest of the unthinking twaddle, allow their consciences to become paralysed – with the consequence that justice and truth are silenced. Let us not forget that it was because of our own idolatry, adultery, drunkenness, slander, swindling, gossip, as well as sexual sins like homosexuality, that Jesus Christ came to disarm and disempower this kind of behaviour by dying on the cross. Let also not forget that when he returns, violence indeed will be directed at those of us who continue in these practices. Homosexuality as far as sin and eternity is concerned is no worse than those of heterosexuals, but the earthly consequences in terms of mental, emotional, physical and social disorders are. The records show that homosexual behaviour does not have the balance, the inbuilt breaking mechanism and governing element that is supplied by the female, which is why the behaviour of gay parades, like the Folsom Street Fair, will inevitably become more and more extreme.

Like the thief on the cross, I confess that I am a sinner in need of grace and mercy, but I make no apology for my intense dislike of homosexual practice, or attempting to expose those who would flaunt their predilections by calling evil good, good evil, or who put darkness for light and light for darkness or who call normal natural and natural normal, or tolerance intolerance and intolerance tolerance. It is not homosexuality per se that is the evil but that it has become an instrument for destroying Truth, Reason and God’s created order. Far from apologising it is time to be clearing the temple – starting with ourselves.

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: Michael Dawson http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-63282 Michael Dawson Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:31:43 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-63282 Hi Bill, Thanks for posting this reply to the current social issue of homosexuality. I would just like to empahsis that as a follower of Christ, we are to hate all evil and love all that is good. We are called to love all persons including all homosexual persons & to hate their practice of immorality. I pray that more people discover for themselves the freedom from the bondage of being a slave to committing evil (sin) that I have found in the Bible. Michael Dawson Hi Bill,
Thanks for posting this reply to the current social issue of homosexuality. I would just like to empahsis that as a follower of Christ, we are to hate all evil and love all that is good. We are called to love all persons including all homosexual persons & to hate their practice of immorality.
I pray that more people discover for themselves the freedom from the bondage of being a slave to committing evil (sin) that I have found in the Bible.
Michael Dawson

]]> By: Peter Coventry http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/comment-page-1/#comment-63270 Peter Coventry Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:29:11 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/02/29/when-foolishness-abounds/#comment-63270 The homosexual agenda knows no bounds. Peter Coventry The homosexual agenda knows no bounds.
Peter Coventry

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