Comments on: A Major Rethink on Church Growth http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:57:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Garth http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-214363 Garth Fri, 05 Nov 2010 12:22:18 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-214363 Hi Russell, yeah it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Having said that, and having been actively involved in leadership which IMO leaned toward the seeker-sensitive approach, where the senior pastor drew a lot from 'corporate style' church building efforts like those of Saddleback and Willowcreek etc. I came to realise that ultimately seeker-sensitivity results more in building church attendance than in building unconditional disciples of Jesus Christ, as much as it is rationalised otherwise, simply because it id fundamentally human-centred and not christ-centred. To take a quote one of Bill's other recent articles which I think sums this up... "The liberal gospel consists of a God without wrath bringing people without sin into a kingdom without judgment through a Christ without a cross." H. Richard Niebuhr Whether we are putting on church services for dogs, having Santa as the focus of our Christmas celebrations, making award winning CDs the focus of our church ministry, or fixated on sympathising with or bandaging the wounds instead of healing the root problem, we are not really spreading the Gospel which has the power of salvation, but more *marketing* a popularised version of Jesus. As Peter said "“Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." Garth Penglase Hi Russell, yeah it’s important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Having said that, and having been actively involved in leadership which IMO leaned toward the seeker-sensitive approach, where the senior pastor drew a lot from ‘corporate style’ church building efforts like those of Saddleback and Willowcreek etc. I came to realise that ultimately seeker-sensitivity results more in building church attendance than in building unconditional disciples of Jesus Christ, as much as it is rationalised otherwise, simply because it id fundamentally human-centred and not christ-centred.

To take a quote one of Bill’s other recent articles which I think sums this up…
“The liberal gospel consists of a God without wrath bringing people without sin into a kingdom without judgment through a Christ without a cross.” H. Richard Niebuhr

Whether we are putting on church services for dogs, having Santa as the focus of our Christmas celebrations, making award winning CDs the focus of our church ministry, or fixated on sympathising with or bandaging the wounds instead of healing the root problem, we are not really spreading the Gospel which has the power of salvation, but more *marketing* a popularised version of Jesus. As Peter said ““Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.”

Garth Penglase

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-214330 Bill Muehlenberg Fri, 05 Nov 2010 07:45:58 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-214330 Thanks Russell A few points if I may. Feel free to ignore the comments if you like, and even my article. The point is, Hybels himself admits that they were wrong to go down this path. They simply were not making disciples, which is what Jesus commanded us to do – not to just win converts. And of course Paul in Corinthians does not boast about having to feed them milk – it says this to their shame. A similar rebuke is given in Hebrews 5. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Russell

A few points if I may. Feel free to ignore the comments if you like, and even my article. The point is, Hybels himself admits that they were wrong to go down this path. They simply were not making disciples, which is what Jesus commanded us to do – not to just win converts.

And of course Paul in Corinthians does not boast about having to feed them milk – it says this to their shame. A similar rebuke is given in Hebrews 5.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Russell Holmes http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-214148 Russell Holmes Thu, 04 Nov 2010 06:45:55 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-214148 I find some of the comments about seeker sensitive services a bit harsh. Having seeker sensitive churches is obviously an evangelistic attempt and is not geared to producing solid disciples unless discipleship happens as well. But the absence of solid discipleship is not limited to seeker sensitive and other types of mega-churches. The problem is when one minister's method become the only method. Paul fed the Corinthians milk and left others to give them meat. He was criticised for not teaching the meat like Apollos. I have a book on my desk by Rick Warren, the purpose driven life, and it has hundreds of Bible passage referenced. It is easy to criticise those who do a lot as we have lots to look at an analyse. We who have done little don't have much to analyse. Evangelists are always being criticised because of the few people who press on to maturity. The problem often has more to do with human sinfulness than the methods. I thank God for people like Bill Hybels and Rick Warren. I have read some of their books but have not followed the seeker sensitive method. I think church is for believers and focus on pastoral teaching. Big nets catch lots and many are discarded. These guys are a part of those given for the building up of the church, but as per the Corinthian problem only become problems when people make them more than God intended. Russell Holmes I find some of the comments about seeker sensitive services a bit harsh. Having seeker sensitive churches is obviously an evangelistic attempt and is not geared to producing solid disciples unless discipleship happens as well. But the absence of solid discipleship is not limited to seeker sensitive and other types of mega-churches. The problem is when one minister’s method become the only method. Paul fed the Corinthians milk and left others to give them meat. He was criticised for not teaching the meat like Apollos. I have a book on my desk by Rick Warren, the purpose driven life, and it has hundreds of Bible passage referenced. It is easy to criticise those who do a lot as we have lots to look at an analyse. We who have done little don’t have much to analyse. Evangelists are always being criticised because of the few people who press on to maturity. The problem often has more to do with human sinfulness than the methods. I thank God for people like Bill Hybels and Rick Warren. I have read some of their books but have not followed the seeker sensitive method. I think church is for believers and focus on pastoral teaching. Big nets catch lots and many are discarded. These guys are a part of those given for the building up of the church, but as per the Corinthian problem only become problems when people make them more than God intended.

Russell Holmes

]]> By: Kerry Letheby http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-186330 Kerry Letheby Mon, 03 May 2010 12:00:06 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-186330 One of our small evening fellowships over a period of 10-15 years consistently had no more than 10-15 people attending at any one time. Some of the elders occasionally lamented that we must be doing something wrong. My response was that was not necessarily so...maybe we were preaching God's word as it is meant to be preached - straight from the Book, rather than preaching what itching ears want to hear. On the other hand, the most positive comment came from our senior pastor one evening when the congregation hit 25..."If we get much more than this, we might have to think about splitting into two fellowships." It's not so important about numbers but more importantly, the roots of the attending numbers need to go deep - growth downwards rather than upwards in numbers. I love my little church! Anyone who is away is missed and not overlooked. Someone will always follow you up. Not a good church if you just want to hide in the pews and not be involved. Kerry Letheby One of our small evening fellowships over a period of 10-15 years consistently had no more than 10-15 people attending at any one time. Some of the elders occasionally lamented that we must be doing something wrong. My response was that was not necessarily so…maybe we were preaching God’s word as it is meant to be preached – straight from the Book, rather than preaching what itching ears want to hear. On the other hand, the most positive comment came from our senior pastor one evening when the congregation hit 25…”If we get much more than this, we might have to think about splitting into two fellowships.” It’s not so important about numbers but more importantly, the roots of the attending numbers need to go deep – growth downwards rather than upwards in numbers. I love my little church! Anyone who is away is missed and not overlooked. Someone will always follow you up. Not a good church if you just want to hide in the pews and not be involved.

Kerry Letheby

]]> By: Roger Marks http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-72375 Roger Marks Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:00:35 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-72375 This and any other question of this nature needs to be bedded firmly in what the scripture says. Having just completed a 12 month study of New Testament church life in the scriptures and consulted over 40 other authors, the only question is what does the scripture say about doing church? I didn't find any rational for a Bill Hybels type megachurch in the scriptures. I did find that there was only one church in each town that met in various homes and the one church was led by unpaid Elders who grew up in the community. The fact that there was only one church in each town would indicate that there were some megachurches, but they were nothing like Willow Creek. Roger Marks This and any other question of this nature needs to be bedded firmly in what the scripture says. Having just completed a 12 month study of New Testament church life in the scriptures and consulted over 40 other authors, the only question is what does the scripture say about doing church? I didn’t find any rational for a Bill Hybels type megachurch in the scriptures. I did find that there was only one church in each town that met in various homes and the one church was led by unpaid Elders who grew up in the community. The fact that there was only one church in each town would indicate that there were some megachurches, but they were nothing like Willow Creek.
Roger Marks

]]> By: Simon Kennedy, VIC http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-42737 Simon Kennedy, VIC Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:08:32 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-42737 That is a sad story, Garth. I'm sorry to hear it. Churches should take every step towards preventing divorce in it's congregations. It is very unbiblical to encourage a divorce. A church should be a place where couples can go and find solutions to their problems, not have them facilitate a break-up. I am aware of the sort of things you describe in the Emerging Church. Liberal theology, or sometimes worse, has a tendency to be purported in some emerging churches. Leaders of the movement in America (Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, others...) are being carefully examined by the likes of Mark Driscoll and John Piper. Often their assessments are less than favourable. However, it is difficult to draw conclusions about the movement as a whole; as I have said, it is not coherent. Simon Kennedy, VIC That is a sad story, Garth. I’m sorry to hear it. Churches should take every step towards preventing divorce in it’s congregations. It is very unbiblical to encourage a divorce. A church should be a place where couples can go and find solutions to their problems, not have them facilitate a break-up.

I am aware of the sort of things you describe in the Emerging Church. Liberal theology, or sometimes worse, has a tendency to be purported in some emerging churches. Leaders of the movement in America (Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, others…) are being carefully examined by the likes of Mark Driscoll and John Piper. Often their assessments are less than favourable. However, it is difficult to draw conclusions about the movement as a whole; as I have said, it is not coherent.

Simon Kennedy, VIC

]]> By: Garth Penglase http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-42396 Garth Penglase Sun, 11 Nov 2007 03:39:50 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-42396 Not making any comment about Mike Frost, but I would say that I was part of a church which considered itself to be part of the 'Emerging Church'. For years I considered it to be a loving, bible-focused church with 'no holds barred' preaching. I have now realised that it was actually what I would now class as a very liberal church which was both controlling and insular in its focus, as well as preaching a 'cheap grace'. Accordingly I suffered when I challenged both its teachings and its failure in practical discipling and counseling, and am no longer part of this church. Tragically this coincided with marital difficulties between my wife and I and, to my absolute amazement, resulted in them recommending and assisting with legal separation, as opposed to a focus on counseling us as to where they believed we needed to line up with scripture. Three other families in the same church (of only 300 members) over this time period have experienced a similar lack of godly counsel and now have gone through a 'no-fault' divorce. I also personally knew 4 other couples from my previous Pentecostal megachurch (of 10 years) that have now also divorced. I guess I would say that the rise in sexual sin and divorce in churches is in direct proportion to the 'solidity' of teaching that comes across the pulpit. There seem to be plenty of examples of churches today that have strayed from the core teaching of our continual need for a Saviour and our transformation through death to our own flesh, in favour of 'fixing' our flesh so we are better, happier, wealthier people. The focus seems to be more on the self-actualisation of the believer through the power of the Holy Spirit and 'gifts', than servanthood, evangelism, and teaching of the resurrected Christ. Garth Penglase Not making any comment about Mike Frost, but I would say that I was part of a church which considered itself to be part of the ‘Emerging Church’. For years I considered it to be a loving, bible-focused church with ‘no holds barred’ preaching. I have now realised that it was actually what I would now class as a very liberal church which was both controlling and insular in its focus, as well as preaching a ‘cheap grace’. Accordingly I suffered when I challenged both its teachings and its failure in practical discipling and counseling, and am no longer part of this church. Tragically this coincided with marital difficulties between my wife and I and, to my absolute amazement, resulted in them recommending and assisting with legal separation, as opposed to a focus on counseling us as to where they believed we needed to line up with scripture. Three other families in the same church (of only 300 members) over this time period have experienced a similar lack of godly counsel and now have gone through a ‘no-fault’ divorce. I also personally knew 4 other couples from my previous Pentecostal megachurch (of 10 years) that have now also divorced.

I guess I would say that the rise in sexual sin and divorce in churches is in direct proportion to the ‘solidity’ of teaching that comes across the pulpit. There seem to be plenty of examples of churches today that have strayed from the core teaching of our continual need for a Saviour and our transformation through death to our own flesh, in favour of ‘fixing’ our flesh so we are better, happier, wealthier people. The focus seems to be more on the self-actualisation of the believer through the power of the Holy Spirit and ‘gifts’, than servanthood, evangelism, and teaching of the resurrected Christ.

Garth Penglase

]]> By: Simon Kennedy, VIC http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-41195 Simon Kennedy, VIC Mon, 05 Nov 2007 07:03:25 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-41195 In response to Damien, 2.11.07 / 6am , I know a bit about Mike Frost. He seems, from my experience, a pretty solid bible teacher and a good thinker. He is a part of what is mostly referred to as the 'Emerging Church', which is not so much a coherent movement, as it is a cultural shift in the way church is "done". Emerging Church could be seen as seeker sensitive, I guess. It has elements of it. It is also a bit controversial as some people in the movement are using some questionable theology, not necessarily Frost though! I wouldn't describe Frost as following a "seeker-sensitive" style. He is more interested in connecting through culture and being in the community and so forth. He has a book called "Exiles" which might be worth reading. Simon Kennedy, VIC In response to Damien, 2.11.07 / 6am ,

I know a bit about Mike Frost. He seems, from my experience, a pretty solid bible teacher and a good thinker. He is a part of what is mostly referred to as the ‘Emerging Church’, which is not so much a coherent movement, as it is a cultural shift in the way church is “done”. Emerging Church could be seen as seeker sensitive, I guess. It has elements of it. It is also a bit controversial as some people in the movement are using some questionable theology, not necessarily Frost though!

I wouldn’t describe Frost as following a “seeker-sensitive” style. He is more interested in connecting through culture and being in the community and so forth. He has a book called “Exiles” which might be worth reading.

Simon Kennedy, VIC

]]> By: Jim Sturla http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-41182 Jim Sturla Mon, 05 Nov 2007 05:32:33 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-41182 Hi Ewan, friend I agree with you 100% and I am sorry that my comments came across the way they did. You see I do not doubt the sincerity behind those originating a ministry but I am concerned as to how quickly they are seduced into methods contrary to Christian opinion. I feel that too often the truth is sacrificed for the sake of relevance. Jim Sturla Hi Ewan, friend I agree with you 100% and I am sorry that my comments came across the way they did.
You see I do not doubt the sincerity behind those originating a ministry but I am concerned as to how quickly they are seduced into methods contrary to Christian opinion.
I feel that too often the truth is sacrificed for the sake of relevance.
Jim Sturla

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-41159 Bill Muehlenberg Mon, 05 Nov 2007 02:49:30 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/#comment-41159 Thanks Garth Yes I used to be the same. As a young believer I was a zealous defender of truth and orthodoxy, and was willing to challenge anyone and anything, often in a most arrogant and un-Christlike manner. I still believe truth and orthodoxy are terribly important and incredibly vital, but I have learned, over the years, to be a bit more gracious, a bit more loving and a bit more humble when it comes to others and their beliefs. Yes, I will always stand for truth, but I have learned to be a bit more forbearing where it is possible, yet hopefully not at the expense of truth and the gospel. As I say, it is a very tough balance to achieve, yet that is what we are called to do: “speak the truth in love” (Eph. 4:15). My earlier days as a believer are nicely represented in the following humorous episode: Walking across a bridge, I saw a man on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: "Stop. Don't do it." "Why not?" he asked. "Well, there's so much to live for!" "Like what?" "Are you religious?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?" "Christian." "Me, too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?" "Protestant." "Me, too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" "Baptist." "Me, too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Church of the Lord?" "Baptist Church of God." "Me, too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or Reformed Baptist Church of God?" "Reformed Baptist Church of God." "Me, too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said: "Reformation of 1915." I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Garth

Yes I used to be the same. As a young believer I was a zealous defender of truth and orthodoxy, and was willing to challenge anyone and anything, often in a most arrogant and un-Christlike manner. I still believe truth and orthodoxy are terribly important and incredibly vital, but I have learned, over the years, to be a bit more gracious, a bit more loving and a bit more humble when it comes to others and their beliefs. Yes, I will always stand for truth, but I have learned to be a bit more forbearing where it is possible, yet hopefully not at the expense of truth and the gospel. As I say, it is a very tough balance to achieve, yet that is what we are called to do: “speak the truth in love” (Eph. 4:15).

My earlier days as a believer are nicely represented in the following humorous episode:

Walking across a bridge, I saw a man on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: “Stop. Don’t do it.”
“Why not?” he asked.
“Well, there’s so much to live for!”
“Like what?”
“Are you religious?”
He said: “Yes.”
I said: “Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?”
“Christian.”
“Me, too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
“Protestant.”
“Me, too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?”
“Baptist.”
“Me, too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Church of the Lord?”
“Baptist Church of God.”
“Me, too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or Reformed Baptist Church of God?”
“Reformed Baptist Church of God.”
“Me, too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist
Church of God, Reformation of 1915?”
He said: “Reformation of 1915.”
I said: “Die, heretic scum,” and pushed him off.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

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