Comments on: The Church, the State, and Social Responsibility http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Sat, 11 Feb 2012 11:39:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jim Sturla http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-40697 Jim Sturla Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:49:23 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/#comment-40697 Hello Pal, you are so right. Over the years I have seen great Christian organisations seeing a need in the community and taking on responsibility to fill that need. A government agency then sees this area as being PC and in order to improve its popularity becomes involved and grants funding. The Christian organisation sees it as a blessing and a way to expand its mission. Herein lies the thorn in the side because "he who pays the piper calls the tune.' All of a sudden we have innumerable government forms and regulations thrust upon us in order to continue with our funding. Yes the Christians began the service because they saw a need but now the government takes it on in order that they are viewed in a positive light. This may sound rather cynical but you see, I have been involved with 3 volunteer organisations over the past 15 years that this has happened to. My wife and I were teaching English to immigrants, the Government said that they would supply us funding if we followed their rules. Their rules were entirely in opposition to what we were doing and so we refused. By the way, we are still teaching English, God has provided marvellously. Jim Sturla Hello Pal, you are so right.
Over the years I have seen great Christian organisations seeing a need in the community and taking on responsibility to fill that need.
A government agency then sees this area as being PC and in order to improve its popularity becomes involved and grants funding.
The Christian organisation sees it as a blessing and a way to expand its mission.
Herein lies the thorn in the side because “he who pays the piper calls the tune.’
All of a sudden we have innumerable government forms and regulations thrust upon us in order to continue with our funding.
Yes the Christians began the service because they saw a need but now the government takes it on in order that they are viewed in a positive light.
This may sound rather cynical but you see, I have been involved with 3 volunteer organisations over the past 15 years that this has happened to.
My wife and I were teaching English to immigrants, the Government said that they would supply us funding if we followed their rules.
Their rules were entirely in opposition to what we were doing and so we refused.
By the way, we are still teaching English, God has provided marvellously.
Jim Sturla

]]> By: Pal http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-40633 Pal Thu, 01 Nov 2007 08:48:30 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/#comment-40633 I think the fact of the matter is that Christians were doing it first, that is caring for the 'poor and needy'. If you look into the history of welfare in Australia it was organisations like the Salvation Army that supported people from low social economic backgrounds. It was the state that later catched on to the idea only because they saw it was profitable for the economy of the country to look after the people, hence socialised medicine. At least Chistians love people and have good motivations no matter what their background is; the state only wants people to work to boost the economy and has no room for difference or social justice. Pal Mochales I think the fact of the matter is that Christians were doing it first, that is caring for the ‘poor and needy’. If you look into the history of welfare in Australia it was organisations like the Salvation Army that supported people from low social economic backgrounds. It was the state that later catched on to the idea only because they saw it was profitable for the economy of the country to look after the people, hence socialised medicine. At least Chistians love people and have good motivations no matter what their background is; the state only wants people to work to boost the economy and has no room for difference or social justice.
Pal Mochales

]]> By: Jim Sturla http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-40510 Jim Sturla Wed, 31 Oct 2007 04:46:15 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/#comment-40510 I believe that God does care for the "needy" and that He has supplied a solution. The solution is simple, it is us believers. Jesus said that if you are truly His disciples you will do as He says and what He did. Believers must ask themselves "Am I truly doing what Jesus wants me too?" This world was changed by men who truly followed the example of Jesus. Jim Sturla I believe that God does care for the “needy” and that He has supplied a solution. The solution is simple, it is us believers. Jesus said that if you are truly His disciples you will do as He says and what He did. Believers must ask themselves “Am I truly doing what Jesus wants me too?” This world was changed by men who truly followed the example of Jesus.
Jim Sturla

]]> By: Matthew http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-40371 Matthew Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:59:22 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/#comment-40371 I have heard Derek Prince say there was a church so keen on the idea "By faith alone" in the Bible that they wouldn't hold a prayer meeting fearing that they would move away from this. Deuteronomy 15 tells us that we need to care for the poor and needy. Time and time again God criticises people for not caring for the poor and needy and often he punishes them, e.g., Nathan rebukes David for taking another man's wife. You could also look at examples such as Psalm 14:6, Psalm 37:14, Proverbs 14:31 (He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker), Proverbs 17:5, Proverbs 21:13 I could go on and on. When people are in need it is a good opportunity to reach them with the gospel. You need to believe what you preach. People don't like hypocrites. If unbelievers are to convinced by us living our lives as the salt of the earth by the grace of God this has to involve caring for the needy. If we say "God cares for the needy", people will look for us to prove it. If anyone thinks that Christians aren't called to care for the poor and needy they need to read more of their Bible. Matthew Mulvaney I have heard Derek Prince say there was a church so keen on the idea “By faith alone” in the Bible that they wouldn’t hold a prayer meeting fearing that they would move away from this.

Deuteronomy 15 tells us that we need to care for the poor and needy. Time and time again God criticises people for not caring for the poor and needy and often he punishes them, e.g., Nathan rebukes David for taking another man’s wife.

You could also look at examples such as Psalm 14:6, Psalm 37:14, Proverbs 14:31 (He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker), Proverbs 17:5, Proverbs 21:13

I could go on and on. When people are in need it is a good opportunity to reach them with the gospel. You need to believe what you preach. People don’t like hypocrites. If unbelievers are to convinced by us living our lives as the salt of the earth by the grace of God this has to involve caring for the needy. If we say “God cares for the needy”, people will look for us to prove it. If anyone thinks that Christians aren’t called to care for the poor and needy they need to read more of their Bible.

Matthew Mulvaney

]]> By: david skinner http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-40275 david skinner Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:38:00 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/#comment-40275 Bill you had a similar article to this relatively recently but I couldn’t find it. In it an atheist was saying that Christian involvement in government and law making would only lead to theocratic states, presumably like Byzantium, to which I replied that what she was proposing, based on an evolutionary humanists' gospel written by prophets like Nietzsche, Marx and Russell, leads to dystopias such as Soviet Russia, Cambodia and now a dysfunctional Britain, where our social services and economy that relies a great deal on Christian, voluntary aid are slowly being forced to shut down. Adoption Agencies and hostels for the homeless have been some of the first to feel the effects of evolutionary, humanist Marxism. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=489285&in_page_id=1770 But the elimination of Christian influence in society will not be just confined to organisations but will inevitably lead the disappearance of the Christian individual working in a school, hospital, anywhere. The weapon being used by evolutionary humanists to airbrush us out of society is the threat of being found guilty of homophobia. http://robgagnon.net/ENDA.htm Jesus Christ was known for his teaching and his works; it is was partly due to his healing ministry that many flocked to see him . The prayer he taught us: that we should ask that God’s name would be hallowed and acknowledged, that his kingdom of justice and righteous would come and that his will would be done on earth, in our nations, towns and communities just as it is in heaven. …the prayer that he taught us was that God’s glory would be visible in every area of our lives. John the Baptist sent a message asking for assurance that Jesus was the Saviour that Israel had been waiting for and Jesus sent back a reply which said "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. David Skinner, UK Bill you had a similar article to this relatively recently but I couldn’t find it. In it an atheist was saying that Christian involvement in government and law making would only lead to theocratic states, presumably like Byzantium, to which I replied that what she was proposing, based on an evolutionary humanists’ gospel written by prophets like Nietzsche, Marx and Russell, leads to dystopias such as Soviet Russia, Cambodia and now a dysfunctional Britain, where our social services and economy that relies a great deal on Christian, voluntary aid are slowly being forced to shut down. Adoption Agencies and hostels for the homeless have been some of the first to feel the effects of evolutionary, humanist Marxism.

www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=489285&in_page_id=1770

But the elimination of Christian influence in society will not be just confined to organisations but will inevitably lead the disappearance of the Christian individual working in a school, hospital, anywhere. The weapon being used by evolutionary humanists to airbrush us out of society is the threat of being found guilty of homophobia.

robgagnon.net/ENDA.htm

Jesus Christ was known for his teaching and his works; it is was partly due to his healing ministry that many flocked to see him . The prayer he taught us: that we should ask that God’s name would be hallowed and acknowledged, that his kingdom of justice and righteous would come and that his will would be done on earth, in our nations, towns and communities just as it is in heaven. …the prayer that he taught us was that God’s glory would be visible in every area of our lives. John the Baptist sent a message asking for assurance that Jesus was the Saviour that Israel had been waiting for and Jesus sent back a reply which said “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.

David Skinner, UK

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-40202 Bill Muehlenberg Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:37:17 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/#comment-40202 Thanks Ewan Yes, if he were simply just reacting to a social gospel type scenario, then I could concur (as I hinted at in my article above). But he seems to be doing much more in his various comments, condemning any church for doing anything other than just proclamation. As to the social gospel, it tended not only to avoid talk of sin, salvation and the cross, but it tended to equate any social action whatsoever with the advance of the kingdom of God. Thus even an atheist working with the poor would effectively be seen as doing the work of the kingdom. Christians back then were right to be concerned about this, and distance themselves from much of it. The rise of fundamentalism (in the original good sense of the word) was the result, but it tended to overreact, thus throwing out almost all cultural and social involvement, and it took the evangelical movement in the mid-20th century to start to get the balance right again. Of course to say this is not to argue that God disapproves of non-believers doing social work, or that it may not be meritorious, in a sense (but not for salvation). But by itself, it is not the gospel. The gospel is about Jesus Christ, but Christians express the gospel in many ways including doing social good, just as Jesus did. And it is done in his name (that is, it is not separated from the saving work of Christ, but seen to be part and parcel of it). As to overseas aid, again I think both Christians and the state can be involved. But it is not just a question of what are the proper boundaries of the state, but who in fact does a better job. We know for example that in such things as prison work and drug rehab work, to name but a few, Christian programs tend to be far more successful than secular ones. But many important issues arise in these sorts of discussions, thus it is a good debate to be having. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Ewan

Yes, if he were simply just reacting to a social gospel type scenario, then I could concur (as I hinted at in my article above). But he seems to be doing much more in his various comments, condemning any church for doing anything other than just proclamation.

As to the social gospel, it tended not only to avoid talk of sin, salvation and the cross, but it tended to equate any social action whatsoever with the advance of the kingdom of God. Thus even an atheist working with the poor would effectively be seen as doing the work of the kingdom. Christians back then were right to be concerned about this, and distance themselves from much of it. The rise of fundamentalism (in the original good sense of the word) was the result, but it tended to overreact, thus throwing out almost all cultural and social involvement, and it took the evangelical movement in the mid-20th century to start to get the balance right again.

Of course to say this is not to argue that God disapproves of non-believers doing social work, or that it may not be meritorious, in a sense (but not for salvation). But by itself, it is not the gospel. The gospel is about Jesus Christ, but Christians express the gospel in many ways including doing social good, just as Jesus did. And it is done in his name (that is, it is not separated from the saving work of Christ, but seen to be part and parcel of it).

As to overseas aid, again I think both Christians and the state can be involved. But it is not just a question of what are the proper boundaries of the state, but who in fact does a better job. We know for example that in such things as prison work and drug rehab work, to name but a few, Christian programs tend to be far more successful than secular ones.

But many important issues arise in these sorts of discussions, thus it is a good debate to be having.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Ewan http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-40200 Ewan Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:08:28 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/29/the-church-the-state-and-social-responsibility/#comment-40200 Perhaps your commentator was simply over reacting to the way some denominations today seem to have become little more than welfare organisations with apparent neglect for the "verbal" gospel. Without meaning to pick on any one denomination, the motto used to be 'soup, soap and salvation', but now it seems the emphasis is on 'soup and soap' and forget about the salvation part. I agree with your observations re the extra-biblical nature of the modern welfare state. Would this also include government (taxpayer) funded overseas aid programs, the promotion of which seems to be a very fashionable cause for many churches these days? Ewan McDonald, Victoria. Perhaps your commentator was simply over reacting to the way some denominations today seem to have become little more than welfare organisations with apparent neglect for the “verbal” gospel. Without meaning to pick on any one denomination, the motto used to be ‘soup, soap and salvation’, but now it seems the emphasis is on ‘soup and soap’ and forget about the salvation part.

I agree with your observations re the extra-biblical nature of the modern welfare state. Would this also include government (taxpayer) funded overseas aid programs, the promotion of which seems to be a very fashionable cause for many churches these days?

Ewan McDonald, Victoria.

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