Comments on: More on Church Growth (and Decline) http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Sat, 11 Feb 2012 02:03:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Ashley Biermann http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/comment-page-1/#comment-151654 Ashley Biermann Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:16:11 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/#comment-151654 Just happened to be reading a couple of your articles Bill, and stumbled across this older one. Two years on it would be good to have some updated figures on these trends. As a fellow pastor and I begin to pioneer a work, I have as my heartbeat peoples spiritual health. After ministering within a mainline church, and finding as one moved "up" the hierarchial system, the shock I experienced in finding spiritual babies, most seemed to have no relationship with our LORD, this is not judging, just from observation of their desire to speak about, be involved with spiritual activities or even to lead those activities. To hear leaders confess to me that they do not have a personal journal and neglect reading the bible was somewhat a shock, of course as one digs deeper one finds that the sheep are following suit. So it would be so good to get behind these numbers in Australia and find out the spiritual health of the leaders in those denominations in decline. How can a leader lead in spiritual things if that leader has no spiritual life themselves? Ashley Biermann Just happened to be reading a couple of your articles Bill, and stumbled across this older one.

Two years on it would be good to have some updated figures on these trends.

As a fellow pastor and I begin to pioneer a work, I have as my heartbeat peoples spiritual health. After ministering within a mainline church, and finding as one moved “up” the hierarchial system, the shock I experienced in finding spiritual babies, most seemed to have no relationship with our LORD, this is not judging, just from observation of their desire to speak about, be involved with spiritual activities or even to lead those activities.

To hear leaders confess to me that they do not have a personal journal and neglect reading the bible was somewhat a shock, of course as one digs deeper one finds that the sheep are following suit.

So it would be so good to get behind these numbers in Australia and find out the spiritual health of the leaders in those denominations in decline. How can a leader lead in spiritual things if that leader has no spiritual life themselves?

Ashley Biermann

]]> By: Tristan Ingle http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/comment-page-1/#comment-109325 Tristan Ingle Thu, 06 Nov 2008 11:14:27 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/#comment-109325 To all/whoever. Given the subject is "More on Church Growth (and Decline)" I was wondering what the figures were for other parts of the world, and the world overall. I have read that since the 1930s, Christianity by the number, has grown by 1300%, whilst the global population has only grown by 400%. Likewise, Christianity in Africa has risen from 3% to 45%, and there has been enormous growth in China (28,000 new converts a day - I am not sure I "believe" this though; maybe I read wrong?). For interest's sake (not that Christianity nor any truth is determined by the numbers, as said) is there any truth to these figures? Perhaps oppressive circumstance is the key ingredient missing from US/AU, such that we're all 'doin fine' without God? (the Beatitudes come to mind) Tristan Ingle, Sydney. To all/whoever.

Given the subject is “More on Church Growth (and Decline)” I was wondering what the figures were for other parts of the world, and the world overall.

I have read that since the 1930s, Christianity by the number, has grown by 1300%, whilst the global population has only grown by 400%. Likewise, Christianity in Africa has risen from 3% to 45%, and there has been enormous growth in China (28,000 new converts a day – I am not sure I “believe” this though; maybe I read wrong?).

For interest’s sake (not that Christianity nor any truth is determined by the numbers, as said) is there any truth to these figures?

Perhaps oppressive circumstance is the key ingredient missing from US/AU, such that we’re all ‘doin fine’ without God? (the Beatitudes come to mind)

Tristan Ingle, Sydney.

]]> By: Garth Penglase http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/comment-page-1/#comment-38144 Garth Penglase Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:39:04 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/#comment-38144 I think that there is a lot of transience in Christian churches today as well. People come and go, also from one church to another. And I believe that has a lot to do with a lack of real conversion and discipleship. It may be because churches can make the mistake of being people-centred, of searching for 'what works', in their approach to growth. With our conversion there should be within us an expectancy for transformation brought about by real and lasting repentance, and a search for holiness in our lives, enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit. And the result of this (not the cause), and proof of it is a desire to be led by God to do good works for His glory. I feel that church life can often be little more than a mirror of the world in people's quest for position, for peer acceptance, for empire building etc. and the focus needs to change. The answer is found on our knees humbly seeking God's holiness and favour in our lives to do His will. The revival starts with me, with each one of us individually, not so much with the 'church'. Garth Penglase I think that there is a lot of transience in Christian churches today as well. People come and go, also from one church to another. And I believe that has a lot to do with a lack of real conversion and discipleship. It may be because churches can make the mistake of being people-centred, of searching for ‘what works’, in their approach to growth.

With our conversion there should be within us an expectancy for transformation brought about by real and lasting repentance, and a search for holiness in our lives, enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit. And the result of this (not the cause), and proof of it is a desire to be led by God to do good works for His glory.

I feel that church life can often be little more than a mirror of the world in people’s quest for position, for peer acceptance, for empire building etc. and the focus needs to change. The answer is found on our knees humbly seeking God’s holiness and favour in our lives to do His will. The revival starts with me, with each one of us individually, not so much with the ‘church’.

Garth Penglase

]]> By: Rae Wallace Devonport 7310 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/comment-page-1/#comment-35699 Rae Wallace Devonport 7310 Sat, 13 Oct 2007 05:35:27 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/#comment-35699 As a born-again Christian, I just love the fact that I have a personal relationship with my Lord and Saviour. I have a very simple approach, when people ask me about "Jesus Christ", I tell them he is my best friend and I would not be able to get through each day without him. His spirit enables me to do what he needs me to do. I have shared with my neighbour for many years now, and I truly believe that the seed has been planted and "God" will use someone else to water the seed in his time. I have been challenged many times why I do not put my Husband first, I explain to them that we are called to put "God" first. I have also found that actions speak louder than words and we are always being watched on how we handle a situation. Rae Wallace, Devonport As a born-again Christian, I just love the fact that I have a personal relationship with my Lord and Saviour. I have a very simple approach, when people ask me about “Jesus Christ”, I tell them he is my best friend and I would not be able to get through each day without him. His spirit enables me to do what he needs me to do. I have shared with my neighbour for many years now, and I truly believe that the seed has been planted and “God” will use someone else to water the seed in his time. I have been challenged many times why I do not put my Husband first, I explain to them that we are called to put “God” first. I have also found that actions speak louder than words and we are always being watched on how we handle a situation.
Rae Wallace, Devonport

]]> By: Jim Sturla http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/comment-page-1/#comment-35643 Jim Sturla Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:44:14 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/#comment-35643 A friend of mine pastors a rather large church here in Brisbane. He has explained to his congregation that only sheep can produce sheep. In other words it is not solely the responsibility of the pastor to evangelise an area. Instead of wanting to bring friends along to church, I believe that Christians must change their mindsets to wanting to bring their friends to Christ. Once their friends have come to know Christ they will want to have relationships with other Christians, How is this done, I believe that non-believers will not necessarily read the bible, they will read the Christian. To be relevant the Christian must become a "walking bible", they must exhibit in their lifestyles the words of Jesus. Unfortunately, I have found that many people view Christians as hypocritical, they say one thing and do another. Unfortunately many people view the church as being a place that just wants your money. Remember these are just viewpoints, they can be changed. The change is not just vested with the pastor, it is the responsibility of all Christians. Jim Sturla A friend of mine pastors a rather large church here in Brisbane.
He has explained to his congregation that only sheep can produce sheep.
In other words it is not solely the responsibility of the pastor to evangelise an area.
Instead of wanting to bring friends along to church, I believe that Christians must change their mindsets to wanting to bring their friends to Christ.
Once their friends have come to know Christ they will want to have relationships with other Christians,
How is this done, I believe that non-believers will not necessarily read the bible, they will read the Christian.
To be relevant the Christian must become a “walking bible”, they must exhibit in their lifestyles the words of Jesus.
Unfortunately, I have found that many people view Christians as hypocritical, they say one thing and do another.
Unfortunately many people view the church as being a place that just wants your money.
Remember these are just viewpoints, they can be changed.
The change is not just vested with the pastor, it is the responsibility of all Christians.
Jim Sturla

]]> By: Jon Newton http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/comment-page-1/#comment-35506 Jon Newton Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:01:58 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/#comment-35506 Numerical growth does not prove a church enjoys God's blessing, but numerical decline is certainly a sign of something wrong! These statistical "wake up calls" are needed so we can all face reality, pray hard, and seek God for direction. Based on Scripture, most clearly in Acts, certain keys to numerical growth seem evident (though not exhaustive): -spiritual life and fervency. -unity. -faith in God and His Word. -openness and availability to His Spirit. -boldness in witness even in the face of opposition. -not putting unnecessary barriers in the way of would be converts. -Spirit-led leadership. Jon Newton Numerical growth does not prove a church enjoys God’s blessing, but numerical decline is certainly a sign of something wrong!
These statistical “wake up calls” are needed so we can all face reality, pray hard, and seek God for direction.

Based on Scripture, most clearly in Acts, certain keys to numerical growth seem evident (though not exhaustive):
-spiritual life and fervency.
-unity.
-faith in God and His Word.
-openness and availability to His Spirit.
-boldness in witness even in the face of opposition.
-not putting unnecessary barriers in the way of would be converts.
-Spirit-led leadership.

Jon Newton

]]> By: Nick Foord http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/comment-page-1/#comment-35418 Nick Foord Fri, 12 Oct 2007 05:46:42 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/10/more-on-church-growth-and-decline/#comment-35418 To Bill, I agree big is not necessarily the best. Your example with Gideon is a good example of that but also on the other hand we can look at King David's army and see the many numbers that flocked to his side 1Chronicles 12:23-38 and see that God also worked in the way of force, power and sheer weight of numbers too. However in saying that I suppose that is why we have so many different, small, big and diversified churches in the world because not just one way works. Everyone is unique and God loves that uniqueness.. thats why he created us like that and as we know in Romans 8:28 "in all things God works for the good of those who love him and who have been called according to His purpose." There are many ways that can see the Kingdom of God grow on this earth. Whether it be a small army of believers making a big difference in this world or whether it be a large army of believers making a big difference in this world. There are many means and God works in all of them. Nick Foord. To Bill,

I agree big is not necessarily the best. Your example with Gideon is a good example of that but also on the other hand we can look at King David’s army and see the many numbers that flocked to his side 1Chronicles 12:23-38 and see that God also worked in the way of force, power and sheer weight of numbers too.

However in saying that I suppose that is why we have so many different, small, big and diversified churches in the world because not just one way works. Everyone is unique and God loves that uniqueness.. thats why he created us like that and as we know in Romans 8:28 “in all things God works for the good of those who love him and who have been called according to His purpose.”

There are many ways that can see the Kingdom of God grow on this earth. Whether it be a small army of believers making a big difference in this world or whether it be a large army of believers making a big difference in this world. There are many means and God works in all of them.

Nick Foord.

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