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	<title>Comments on: Religion and the Political Spectrum</title>
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	<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/</link>
	<description>Bill Muehlenberg&#039;s commentary on issues of the day...</description>
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		<title>By: Damien</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-33816</link>
		<dc:creator>Damien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 11:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-33816</guid>
		<description>I hope I am not too late to enter this debate.

Jonathan

How do you know the diamonds weren&#039;t produced recently as is possible from meteorite collisions and volcanic eruptions etc? Where were the diamond samples taken from?

Damien Spillane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope I am not too late to enter this debate.</p>
<p>Jonathan</p>
<p>How do you know the diamonds weren&#8217;t produced recently as is possible from meteorite collisions and volcanic eruptions etc? Where were the diamond samples taken from?</p>
<p>Damien Spillane</p>
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		<title>By: Sergio Andriez</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-30878</link>
		<dc:creator>Sergio Andriez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-30878</guid>
		<description>It would be beneficial to see more Christians involved in the politicial arena - not so much to promote individual ideologies - but to impact our society with Christian ethical views in economic, social, moral and justice matters. It is not whether we lean to the left or to the right-that is a personal choice - but to make an impact in these matters in a Christ-like attitude. The Book of Amos gives us a warning, Wilberforce gives us an example, and so shouldn&#039;t our Christian belief cause us to make inroads, either to the left or to the right side of politics, influencing those around us?
Sergio Andriez</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be beneficial to see more Christians involved in the politicial arena &#8211; not so much to promote individual ideologies &#8211; but to impact our society with Christian ethical views in economic, social, moral and justice matters. It is not whether we lean to the left or to the right-that is a personal choice &#8211; but to make an impact in these matters in a Christ-like attitude. The Book of Amos gives us a warning, Wilberforce gives us an example, and so shouldn&#8217;t our Christian belief cause us to make inroads, either to the left or to the right side of politics, influencing those around us?<br />
Sergio Andriez</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Sarfati</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-30641</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Sarfati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-30641</guid>
		<description>See also Andrew Bolt&#039;s recent column &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_questions_for_gassy_gore/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Questions for gassy Gore&lt;/a&gt;.
Jonathan Sarfati, Balfour</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See also Andrew Bolt&#8217;s recent column <a href="http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_questions_for_gassy_gore/" rel="nofollow">Questions for gassy Gore</a>.<br />
Jonathan Sarfati, Balfour</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Sarfati</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-30453</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Sarfati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-30453</guid>
		<description>Steve Angelino, I have an earned doctorate in science.  There is nothing in real operational science to point to billions of years, and much against, such as &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4650/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;carbon-14 in coal and diamonds that should have disintegrated if the samples were millions of years old&lt;/a&gt;.

And not that you care, yes indeed the Bible does command good stewardship, as I have &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/2489/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;written elsewhere&lt;/a&gt;.  That&#039;s a major reason &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4817/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I oppose global warming hysteria&lt;/a&gt;!

Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve Angelino, I have an earned doctorate in science.  There is nothing in real operational science to point to billions of years, and much against, such as <a href="http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4650/" rel="nofollow">carbon-14 in coal and diamonds that should have disintegrated if the samples were millions of years old</a>.</p>
<p>And not that you care, yes indeed the Bible does command good stewardship, as I have <a href="http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/2489/" rel="nofollow">written elsewhere</a>.  That&#8217;s a major reason <a href="http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4817/" rel="nofollow">I oppose global warming hysteria</a>!</p>
<p>Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Kulikovsky</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-30352</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Kulikovsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-30352</guid>
		<description>Steve Angelino in &lt;i&gt;italics:
I’m astounded by Andrew’s simplistic response to the major challenges facing humanity.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, I haven&#039;t given my full responses so how can you say they are simplistic?

With respect to Climage Change, I reject the notion that this is a major challenge facing humanity, and my rejection is based on very sound scientific evidence. For a start, you may want to consult:
http://www.climateaudit.org

&lt;i&gt;The suggestion that a warmer climate will introduce economic benefits displays a staggering ignorance of the effects of climate on biodiversity, the food chain, human health, water security and flooding of lowlands.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, I am very well aware of the effects: they are positive on balance.

May I suggest that it is you who are displaying the &quot;staggering ignorance&quot;.

&lt;i&gt;It is grossly irresponsible to simply label all such projections as alarmist when they are based on sound and well-established science.&lt;/i&gt;

But they are not based on sound and well-established science - that&#039;s the point!

Case in point: the famous &quot;hockey stick&quot; curve produced by Mann which formed the centrepiece of the 2001 IPCC report. McKitrick and McIntyre so thoroughly debunked it, showing it to be misleading and fraudulent, that the latest IPCC report has dropped it.

&lt;i&gt;in Africa...Overpopulation is a key factor behind poverty, hunger and disease, and these problems are not being solved by the market.&lt;/i&gt;

In Africa, the biggest cause of poverty is under-development, civil war and foreign aid. Read my paper on economics and you will see what the Africans themselves are saying.

&lt;i&gt;Nor are they helped by the attitudes of Christian churches who stubbornly oppose education about contraception and safe sex.&lt;/i&gt;

Yet the most successful policy to reduce AIDS in Africa is the Christian backed &lt;b&gt;ABC&lt;/b&gt; program, which calls for &lt;b&gt;A&lt;/b&gt;bstenance for unmarried people, &lt;b&gt;B&lt;/b&gt;eing faithful for married couples, and &lt;b&gt;C&lt;/b&gt;ondoms for already infected people.

This program was being used only in Uganda. The result was that Uganda saw their infection rates drop from 30% to less than 5% in some areas. All other countries which simply adopted the UN approach of handing out millions of condoms all saw their infection rates continue to increase.

Andrew Kulikovsky</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve Angelino in <i>italics:<br />
I’m astounded by Andrew’s simplistic response to the major challenges facing humanity.</i></p>
<p>Actually, I haven&#8217;t given my full responses so how can you say they are simplistic?</p>
<p>With respect to Climage Change, I reject the notion that this is a major challenge facing humanity, and my rejection is based on very sound scientific evidence. For a start, you may want to consult:<br />
<a href="http://www.climateaudit.org" rel="nofollow">www.climateaudit.org</a></p>
<p><i>The suggestion that a warmer climate will introduce economic benefits displays a staggering ignorance of the effects of climate on biodiversity, the food chain, human health, water security and flooding of lowlands.</i></p>
<p>Actually, I am very well aware of the effects: they are positive on balance.</p>
<p>May I suggest that it is you who are displaying the &#8220;staggering ignorance&#8221;.</p>
<p><i>It is grossly irresponsible to simply label all such projections as alarmist when they are based on sound and well-established science.</i></p>
<p>But they are not based on sound and well-established science &#8211; that&#8217;s the point!</p>
<p>Case in point: the famous &#8220;hockey stick&#8221; curve produced by Mann which formed the centrepiece of the 2001 IPCC report. McKitrick and McIntyre so thoroughly debunked it, showing it to be misleading and fraudulent, that the latest IPCC report has dropped it.</p>
<p><i>in Africa&#8230;Overpopulation is a key factor behind poverty, hunger and disease, and these problems are not being solved by the market.</i></p>
<p>In Africa, the biggest cause of poverty is under-development, civil war and foreign aid. Read my paper on economics and you will see what the Africans themselves are saying.</p>
<p><i>Nor are they helped by the attitudes of Christian churches who stubbornly oppose education about contraception and safe sex.</i></p>
<p>Yet the most successful policy to reduce AIDS in Africa is the Christian backed <b>ABC</b> program, which calls for <b>A</b>bstenance for unmarried people, <b>B</b>eing faithful for married couples, and <b>C</b>ondoms for already infected people.</p>
<p>This program was being used only in Uganda. The result was that Uganda saw their infection rates drop from 30% to less than 5% in some areas. All other countries which simply adopted the UN approach of handing out millions of condoms all saw their infection rates continue to increase.</p>
<p>Andrew Kulikovsky</p>
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		<title>By: Ewan</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-30336</link>
		<dc:creator>Ewan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-30336</guid>
		<description>Of course unlike the rest of us Steve Angelino has no &quot;preconceived bias&quot;, nor is he qualified to judge what to him sound like &quot;extreme position[s]&quot;. His views on global warming sound to me extreme if he thinks that global warming is a &quot;major challenge facing humanity&quot;. Bjorn Lomborg in his new book &lt;i&gt;Cool it: The Skeptical Environmentalist&#039;s Guide to Global Warming&lt;/i&gt; documents that at present cold related human deaths far exceed heat related deaths, and even assuming the globe will continue to warm, are projected to continue to do so far into the future. So warming will lead to a net lower death count.

Another good indication that the left has it wrong on most things, is the observation that within the Christian community liberal theology and liberal politics go hand in hand, whilst those who are biblically orthodox are usually also politically conservative.

Ewan McDonald, Victoria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course unlike the rest of us Steve Angelino has no &#8220;preconceived bias&#8221;, nor is he qualified to judge what to him sound like &#8220;extreme position[s]&#8220;. His views on global warming sound to me extreme if he thinks that global warming is a &#8220;major challenge facing humanity&#8221;. Bjorn Lomborg in his new book <i>Cool it: The Skeptical Environmentalist&#8217;s Guide to Global Warming</i> documents that at present cold related human deaths far exceed heat related deaths, and even assuming the globe will continue to warm, are projected to continue to do so far into the future. So warming will lead to a net lower death count.</p>
<p>Another good indication that the left has it wrong on most things, is the observation that within the Christian community liberal theology and liberal politics go hand in hand, whilst those who are biblically orthodox are usually also politically conservative.</p>
<p>Ewan McDonald, Victoria.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Angelino, WA</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-30325</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Angelino, WA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-30325</guid>
		<description>Jonathan,

In case you haven&#039;t noticed, almost everyone is a greenie these days, and it&#039;s no longer the pejorative term that you seem to imply it is.  I would have thought a Christian would have concerns about the environment too.  Doesn&#039;t the Bible call upon Christians to exercise good stewardship over the earth?

As for science and prediction, both you and Andrew are young-earth creationists if I understand correctly.  Anyone in this day and age who still thinks the earth is only 6000 years old is to be pitied.  You certainly have no credentials which would allow you to provide credible commentary on scientific matters.

Steve Angelino, WA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan,</p>
<p>In case you haven&#8217;t noticed, almost everyone is a greenie these days, and it&#8217;s no longer the pejorative term that you seem to imply it is.  I would have thought a Christian would have concerns about the environment too.  Doesn&#8217;t the Bible call upon Christians to exercise good stewardship over the earth?</p>
<p>As for science and prediction, both you and Andrew are young-earth creationists if I understand correctly.  Anyone in this day and age who still thinks the earth is only 6000 years old is to be pitied.  You certainly have no credentials which would allow you to provide credible commentary on scientific matters.</p>
<p>Steve Angelino, WA</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Sarfati</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-30272</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Sarfati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-30272</guid>
		<description>It is certainly true that the free market is not perfect.  But this is to be expected since it results from the actions of imperfect human beings.  But it is fallacious to argue from its imperfections that government interventions are necessary to &quot;fix&quot; them.  Indeed, such &quot;fixes&quot; usually create more problems than they solve.  Indeed the sub-prime crisis that Steve Angelino thinks requires more government intervention was actually largely caused by government intervention in the first place (see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/08/08/sub-prime_politicians?page=full&amp;comments=true&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/08/08/sub-prime_politicians?page=full&amp;comments=true&lt;/a&gt; by Thomas Sowell)!

Steve Angelino, like many greenies, claims the support of &quot;science&quot; for his alarmist projections.  But that&#039;s the whole point: &lt;i&gt;future&lt;/i&gt; projections are &lt;i&gt;interpretations&lt;/i&gt; of the scientific data in the &lt;i&gt;present&lt;/i&gt;, based on certain assumptions.   Conversely, Andrew Kulikovsky appealed to well documented &lt;I&gt;history&lt;/i&gt; that the Medieval Warm Period, warmer than today, was a period of prosperity.  This was followed by the Little Ice Age, a period of famines and plagues.

Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is certainly true that the free market is not perfect.  But this is to be expected since it results from the actions of imperfect human beings.  But it is fallacious to argue from its imperfections that government interventions are necessary to &#8220;fix&#8221; them.  Indeed, such &#8220;fixes&#8221; usually create more problems than they solve.  Indeed the sub-prime crisis that Steve Angelino thinks requires more government intervention was actually largely caused by government intervention in the first place (see <a href="http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/08/08/sub-prime_politicians?page=full&amp;comments=true" rel="nofollow">www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/08/08/sub-prime_politicians?page=full&#038;comments=true</a> by Thomas Sowell)!</p>
<p>Steve Angelino, like many greenies, claims the support of &#8220;science&#8221; for his alarmist projections.  But that&#8217;s the whole point: <i>future</i> projections are <i>interpretations</i> of the scientific data in the <i>present</i>, based on certain assumptions.   Conversely, Andrew Kulikovsky appealed to well documented <i>history</i> that the Medieval Warm Period, warmer than today, was a period of prosperity.  This was followed by the Little Ice Age, a period of famines and plagues.</p>
<p>Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Kennedy, VIC</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-30271</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Kennedy, VIC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-30271</guid>
		<description>Steve, I agree that that there appears to be an assumption running through the discussion that there are only extreme viewpoints being perpetrated; which is why I think I have been misinterpreted. Therefore, so has everyone. You rightly point out, too, that the generalisations being made regarding climate change and free markets are a little bewildering. &quot;Irresponsible&quot; is the right word for some of the assumptions being made.

Thanks Bill; I have not once claimed that I am not living in a way which I think is not exploitative, so no real need to put the guilt back on me. I am only too aware that I am sitting at a wooden desk! Just in case you&#039;re interested in finding out who is exploiting the earth&#039;s resources;

http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/ecologicalfootprint/calculators/personal/introduction.asp

This has been a really good discussion. I have enjoyed reading everyone&#039;s views. &quot;Lets keep thinking these things through...&quot;; I agree entirely. Thanks again.

Simon Kennedy, VIC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I agree that that there appears to be an assumption running through the discussion that there are only extreme viewpoints being perpetrated; which is why I think I have been misinterpreted. Therefore, so has everyone. You rightly point out, too, that the generalisations being made regarding climate change and free markets are a little bewildering. &#8220;Irresponsible&#8221; is the right word for some of the assumptions being made.</p>
<p>Thanks Bill; I have not once claimed that I am not living in a way which I think is not exploitative, so no real need to put the guilt back on me. I am only too aware that I am sitting at a wooden desk! Just in case you&#8217;re interested in finding out who is exploiting the earth&#8217;s resources;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/ecologicalfootprint/calculators/personal/introduction.asp" rel="nofollow">www.epa.vic.gov.au/ecologicalfootprint/calculators/personal/introduction.asp</a></p>
<p>This has been a really good discussion. I have enjoyed reading everyone&#8217;s views. &#8220;Lets keep thinking these things through&#8230;&#8221;; I agree entirely. Thanks again.</p>
<p>Simon Kennedy, VIC</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Muehlenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/comment-page-1/#comment-30265</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Muehlenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/09/13/religion-and-the-political-spectrum/#comment-30265</guid>
		<description>Thanks Steve

In my article I did state that “every believer who thinks and acts politically will fall somewhere along the political spectrum, either more to the left or to the right, or some combination thereof”. That is true of economics as well. Of course there are no totally pure forms of capitalism or socialism in the world, but neither is there an economic system or theory that does not fall somewhere on the spectrum.

All economies will either be a bit more to the right (emphasising less government regulation), more to the left (emphasising more government regulation), or somewhere more in the middle (a blend of both worlds). Most economies do have a mixture, but some can rightly be called more socialistic, while some others can rightly be called more capitalistic.

But free market economic theory can be compared with statist economic theory, just as free market practice can be compared with statist practice. Then it is a question of which one, or which combination, produces the best outcomes as measured by various indicators.

As to the US, there are plenty of pros and cons that can be examined on the various “shortcomings” you find there, but this is not the place to do that.

And your other points are starting to stray much further from the original article (sex ed, demographic issues, etc.), but I cover them much more fully in other relevant sections on this website. 

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Steve</p>
<p>In my article I did state that “every believer who thinks and acts politically will fall somewhere along the political spectrum, either more to the left or to the right, or some combination thereof”. That is true of economics as well. Of course there are no totally pure forms of capitalism or socialism in the world, but neither is there an economic system or theory that does not fall somewhere on the spectrum.</p>
<p>All economies will either be a bit more to the right (emphasising less government regulation), more to the left (emphasising more government regulation), or somewhere more in the middle (a blend of both worlds). Most economies do have a mixture, but some can rightly be called more socialistic, while some others can rightly be called more capitalistic.</p>
<p>But free market economic theory can be compared with statist economic theory, just as free market practice can be compared with statist practice. Then it is a question of which one, or which combination, produces the best outcomes as measured by various indicators.</p>
<p>As to the US, there are plenty of pros and cons that can be examined on the various “shortcomings” you find there, but this is not the place to do that.</p>
<p>And your other points are starting to stray much further from the original article (sex ed, demographic issues, etc.), but I cover them much more fully in other relevant sections on this website. </p>
<p>Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch</p>
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