Let me call your bluff here. Given that Marlaina’s point was a complete red herring, absolutely unrelated to the issue of abortion, of course it was not answered. Why should it be? What does it have to do with the issue at hand? Thus there is no “reluctance to debate this point” as you disingenuously suggest.

But no, neither Falwell nor any other major Christian leader or organisation that I am aware of has ever said that homosexuals should be ill-treated or violently attacked. But if your understanding of “hate crimes” is simply to oppose the homosexual lifestyle, and warn against the dangers involved in the lifestyle, then you have are of course just pushing an agenda and out of touch with reality.

In the country where I live it is called freedom of speech to be able to disagree with another person and his lifestyle. If you do not approve of such freedoms, that is your problem, but please spare us the foolishness of labelling this as “hate crimes”.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

I notice, Bill and Mark, that you conveniently fail to acknowledge Marlaina’s challenge regarding homosexual hate crimes. Care to respond? Where are the Christians standing up condemning these? Certainly, a goodly portion of Jerry Falwell’s ‘moral Christian’ crew approved of them. Of course, I’m not arguing that this was a majority representation of followers of the Christian faith – just that there seems to be a suspicious silence coming from both of you on this point. I’m assuming you believe homosexuality is a sin. Perhaps that explains your reluctance to debate this point.

Clementine Ford

You wrote “…they are trying to control people’s lives for various reasons when really these people are doing no harm.” I would love it if you really thought about this statement for a moment. The only way you can logically conclude that they “do no harm” is to dehumanize the unborn, isn’t it?

I want you to try to carefully reconsider the pro-life case – it has extremely strong support from the best medical science available to argue that a unique human life starts from conception. There is no requirement whatsoever to be religious to conclude that every human life has a continuum from this point until death. Once this is established, it becomes clear what abortion actually is – the death of a young human life. That must surely be a concern to anybody! Why are you arguing against what is so easily established from completely secular sources?

Yes, I’m a Christian, and unashamedly so – but I reckon if you ever required a prolifer to engage a discussion or debate on abortion without single recourse to a Bible quote, I suspect the vast majority would welcome the opportunity (provided it really was a formal debate, not some anonymous web slanging match.) Some of them would not ever use the Bible anyway, because they are not religious. Are you aware there are atheists who are prolife?

Try this challenge before (if!) you reply next, go from the top of this page to the bottom, and count how many references a prolifer makes to the Bible. You’re the one who has claimed we “bleat lines from a book”.

And if you’re wrong about this (something you could reasonably easily establish if you’re correct), what else have you argued that isn’t reliable? – eg. your interpretation of the mission of Jesus, your understanding of the slavery parallel, ‘human goodness’, etc. – things a little more difficult to support…

BTW, I do welcome your presence here, especially your tendency to argue the point, not the attack the person. Thank you.

Mark Rabich

But your understanding of Jesus is sketchy and selective at best. Your attempt to turn him into a wishy-washy, liberal, pro-abortion secular humanist just won’t wash.

And if someone is doing wrong (like killing innocent babies) they should not only be shamed, but every legitimate method should be used to get them to stop such immoral activities. I am glad Wilberforce shamed the slave owners, and I am more than happy to shame the abortionists.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

It would be betetr that the church have a “support; don’t moralise” mandate.

Or do more of the wonderful things the bible preaches, more of the inate human goodness, and less of the old laws that existed when women were indeed slaves to men, and where people were ruled for the gain of the few, where the bible promotes death for women who have cheated (even thought to have) (oh how times have changed!)

The messages of Jesus are clear, love one another, do not judge, be good and help those in need. I see the church doing good, but the controlling moralising, its not what I think Jesus was going on about.

These arguments against abortion that people have shown here are about a book, shame, control, more shame.

No-one has discussed the wonders of support and education. But I guess Its so easier to judge than help….

And I suppose, using your slavery argument, if Christians had stood up and preached that homosexuality is not wrong, then perhaps many people killed by hate crimes might still be here.

Where was the Christian moral voice then?

If one “Christian Voice”, Bill, as you argue, stopped slavery, then how come many cannot stop hate crimes?

God cares how you live and live with others, not how you bleat lines from a book and shame others.

Marlaina Read

Come on women (and men), if you don’t want to accept the responsibility of having a child, just say ‘no’ in the first place!

David Clay, Melbourne

When a government funds abortion, or fails to uphold the law which forbids abortion (except in genuine cases of a woman’s life is endangered), or when a government decriminalises abortion, it is in effect condoning the act. Women who are alone in their fear, reluctant or confused are left with no ally. Whether we like it or not, people look to Governments to provide moral guidance…

I have spoken to several women who said to me, “if only one person had said I could have the baby, I would have, but there was no-one.” I have also unashamedly encouraged fearful pregnant women that they had the strength and the courage within to continue their pregnancies… Sometimes we all need to hear, “you can do this and I can help you.” I think this is the message Governments need to send.

Julie Robinson