Comments on: Were the Early Christians Pacifists? http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Sat, 11 Feb 2012 02:03:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-261088 Bill Muehlenberg Thu, 09 Feb 2012 01:49:46 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-261088 Thanks for your thoughts Joseph I am not a Catholic but I know a bit about Catholic social teaching on war and peace. I write about it here for example: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2011/05/05/killing-and-catholic-social-teaching/ As to the idea of suffering injustice, individual Christians may choose to do this, but governments cannot and must not. And when an innocent third party is targeted, Christians also have an obligation to protect them and maintain justice. But I discuss all that in more detail here: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2011/04/20/difficult-bible-passages-matthew-539/ If you want to take this further, I have 44 articles in my War and Peace section. These, for example, might be of help: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2011/05/04/the-death-penalty-justice-and-the-gospel/ http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/14/muddled-thinking-on-war-peace-and-justice/ Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks for your thoughts Joseph

I am not a Catholic but I know a bit about Catholic social teaching on war and peace. I write about it here for example: www.billmuehlenberg.com/2011/05/05/killing-and-catholic-social-teaching/

As to the idea of suffering injustice, individual Christians may choose to do this, but governments cannot and must not. And when an innocent third party is targeted, Christians also have an obligation to protect them and maintain justice. But I discuss all that in more detail here: www.billmuehlenberg.com/2011/04/20/difficult-bible-passages-matthew-539/

If you want to take this further, I have 44 articles in my War and Peace section. These, for example, might be of help:

www.billmuehlenberg.com/2011/05/04/the-death-penalty-justice-and-the-gospel/
www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/07/14/muddled-thinking-on-war-peace-and-justice/

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Joseph Anthony http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-261085 Joseph Anthony Thu, 09 Feb 2012 00:57:57 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-261085 Thank you for this article, by the way. My comment above was simply to say that I think we should take wisdom from the early Church, and promote peace rather than war. We should be content to undergo injustices or even persecution so that we can live with each other in the peaceful love of Jesus. Joseph Anthony Thank you for this article, by the way. My comment above was simply to say that I think we should take wisdom from the early Church, and promote peace rather than war. We should be content to undergo injustices or even persecution so that we can live with each other in the peaceful love of Jesus.
Joseph Anthony

]]> By: Joseph Anthony http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-261084 Joseph Anthony Thu, 09 Feb 2012 00:53:45 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-261084 Not entering into the debate here, just expressing my perspective. I am not a pacifist in the strict sense of the word. I think individuals can practice self-defense using proportionate force. I also think that governments can use proportionate force to protect the sovereignty of a nation against aggressors or to protect the common good within a nation. For all practical purposes, I'm pretty close to a pacifist. I think the instances in which wars and other bloody conflict is justified are very limited. I think the times where they are prudent are even more limited. In most all instances, I think the more morally upright thing to do is to suffer injustice rather than resort to violence, though I don't think there is an obligation in justice to do this. I think that the Church should be associated with peace making. Although I don't think that historical instances like the Battle of Lepanto were bad (Europe was being invaded, after all), I think it's unfortunate that the times Christians resorted to violence is better remembered than the times Christians suffered injustice and even death rather than take up arms. I'm glad that this has changed to a large extent in the modern world. When the Catholic Pope of Rome, John Paul II, came out against the Iraq war, that seems to me to be the right thing to have done. The recent comments of the current Pope, Benedict XVI, about peace and avoiding war also seem like the right thing. Those who represent Christianity in the eyes of the world have a special duty to avoid the appearance of militarism and to stand up for the Prince of Peace. Joseph Anthony Not entering into the debate here, just expressing my perspective.

I am not a pacifist in the strict sense of the word. I think individuals can practice self-defense using proportionate force. I also think that governments can use proportionate force to protect the sovereignty of a nation against aggressors or to protect the common good within a nation.

For all practical purposes, I’m pretty close to a pacifist. I think the instances in which wars and other bloody conflict is justified are very limited. I think the times where they are prudent are even more limited. In most all instances, I think the more morally upright thing to do is to suffer injustice rather than resort to violence, though I don’t think there is an obligation in justice to do this.

I think that the Church should be associated with peace making. Although I don’t think that historical instances like the Battle of Lepanto were bad (Europe was being invaded, after all), I think it’s unfortunate that the times Christians resorted to violence is better remembered than the times Christians suffered injustice and even death rather than take up arms.

I’m glad that this has changed to a large extent in the modern world. When the Catholic Pope of Rome, John Paul II, came out against the Iraq war, that seems to me to be the right thing to have done. The recent comments of the current Pope, Benedict XVI, about peace and avoiding war also seem like the right thing. Those who represent Christianity in the eyes of the world have a special duty to avoid the appearance of militarism and to stand up for the Prince of Peace.

Joseph Anthony

]]> By: David Roberts http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-243653 David Roberts Tue, 03 May 2011 22:19:03 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-243653 Thanks for this article Bill. I can wholly agree with your points above. I'm starting to read your posts from y'day and their imbedded links. David Roberts Thanks for this article Bill. I can wholly agree with your points above. I’m starting to read your posts from y’day and their imbedded links.
David Roberts

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-171376 Bill Muehlenberg Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:30:58 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-171376 Thanks Colin But with all due respect I am afraid that simply lifting texts out of their context does not establish an argument. 1 You are way off with Luke 3:14. It is the Greek that we want to faithfully translate, and all the newer versions are much more accurate here. A good rendering of the Greek would be: “Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely—be content with your pay” as the NIV has it. Thus this has nothing at all to do with warfare. Indeed, if being a soldier was evil, John would have said straight out in answer to their question: ‘leave the military at once – it is an evil occupation’. But he did not say that. Why not? 2 Of course we look to Jesus. But this has absolutely nothing to do with whether military involvement or warfare is biblically acceptable. If you think the use of force is completely wrong, then you had better stop looking to Jesus. He used plenty of force when he overturned the tables in the temple. And he will use a heck of a lot more force when he comes again, mounted on a war horse, with sword in hand, judging his enemies. 3 Do you in fact believe that God cannot or does not kill? Then you must throw away most of your Bible. He strikes people dead athroughout the Bible. Indeed, we are told to fear this God who has the power to not only kill the body but the soul as well (Matt 10:28). 4 Paul of course is talking about our spiritual interaction with the world. We of course have heavenly weapons. We do not evangelise or witness by threatening people with force. But that again has nothing to do with the fact that God has ordained the state and the use of force to minister justice in a fallen world, 5 What does loving the world have to do with whether or not warfare is biblically justified? In the world people also eat and breathe and sleep. Should those activities be taboo for the Christian as well because they happen to occur in the world? I am afraid you are not thinking very carefully or biblically here. 6 This passage of course describes how the Christian should live his life as a disciple of Jesus. Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with how God has ordained the State to use force to maintain justice and punish evil. You simply confuse the personal ethics of the Christian walk with our God-given obligations to administer justice via the state in a fallen world. 7 This verse answers your whole comment. Who commanded the war Colin? It was God’s idea. If war is so evil and sinful as you want to suggest, then how can God command it? Indeed, there are many dozens of verses in the Bible where God is called a Warrior (Ex. 15:3, eg), where he orders warfare (Josh 8:1, eg), and where he teaches us how to go to battle (Ps 18:34, eg). Sorry, but you seem to lack some basic Bible knowledge and some basic biblical interpretation skills. I presume there are some good theological schools in Nigeria. You might check them out if you have the time. But thanks for writing in. Blessings, Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Colin

But with all due respect I am afraid that simply lifting texts out of their context does not establish an argument.

1 You are way off with Luke 3:14. It is the Greek that we want to faithfully translate, and all the newer versions are much more accurate here. A good rendering of the Greek would be: “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay” as the NIV has it. Thus this has nothing at all to do with warfare. Indeed, if being a soldier was evil, John would have said straight out in answer to their question: ‘leave the military at once – it is an evil occupation’. But he did not say that. Why not?

2 Of course we look to Jesus. But this has absolutely nothing to do with whether military involvement or warfare is biblically acceptable. If you think the use of force is completely wrong, then you had better stop looking to Jesus. He used plenty of force when he overturned the tables in the temple. And he will use a heck of a lot more force when he comes again, mounted on a war horse, with sword in hand, judging his enemies.

3 Do you in fact believe that God cannot or does not kill? Then you must throw away most of your Bible. He strikes people dead athroughout the Bible. Indeed, we are told to fear this God who has the power to not only kill the body but the soul as well (Matt 10:28).

4 Paul of course is talking about our spiritual interaction with the world. We of course have heavenly weapons. We do not evangelise or witness by threatening people with force. But that again has nothing to do with the fact that God has ordained the state and the use of force to minister justice in a fallen world,

5 What does loving the world have to do with whether or not warfare is biblically justified? In the world people also eat and breathe and sleep. Should those activities be taboo for the Christian as well because they happen to occur in the world? I am afraid you are not thinking very carefully or biblically here.

6 This passage of course describes how the Christian should live his life as a disciple of Jesus. Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with how God has ordained the State to use force to maintain justice and punish evil. You simply confuse the personal ethics of the Christian walk with our God-given obligations to administer justice via the state in a fallen world.

7 This verse answers your whole comment. Who commanded the war Colin? It was God’s idea. If war is so evil and sinful as you want to suggest, then how can God command it? Indeed, there are many dozens of verses in the Bible where God is called a Warrior (Ex. 15:3, eg), where he orders warfare (Josh 8:1, eg), and where he teaches us how to go to battle (Ps 18:34, eg).

Sorry, but you seem to lack some basic Bible knowledge and some basic biblical interpretation skills. I presume there are some good theological schools in Nigeria. You might check them out if you have the time.

But thanks for writing in. Blessings,
Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Aduah Colin http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-170439 Aduah Colin Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:41:51 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-170439 Please let us not deceive ourselves, on no account should a christian, drop the bible, pick up AK 47 , heads to war and starts snuffing lives out of people, why- 1. Luke 3;14(KJV) "do violence to no man...." It didnt say do violence to enemy soldiers or your enemies.It didnt say either do no violence to your friend and collegues. what is violence? act of hurting or killing someone. In short he was telling them to get out of the millitary becaus e there is no way you cant do violence in military. 2. Hebrews 12:2, (KJV) "looking unto Jesus...." Jesus is to be our example . He never enlisted in the army ,like wise we. And , I cant believe that Jesus if He is alive today will leave the main purpose of His coming ("that the world through Him might be saved" John 3:17), to save the sinners and armed robbers and start sending them untimely to hellfire. Christ is not willing that any should perish,but for them to repent and go to heaven (2 Peter 3;9, Luke 5:31).He Christ has given us this mandate too,(John20:21), and not to carry guns ,bombs and knives. 3. John 10:10(KJV) "the thief (satan) cometh not but to steal ,kill, and destroy..." This is what is done mainly in war. War is the will of satan and christians should not help satan fufill his will. We should fulfill the will of God which is to make disciples of all nations(both enemy nations and friendly nations-Matthew 28:19). the will of God on the other hand is also that all (both enemies and friends, both sinners and saints) people should have life and life abundant ( have life on earth and more abundantly in eternity). 4. 2 Corinthians 10:4(NKJV) "the weapon of our warfare are not carnal(physical; as in AK 47,BOMBS,KINVES,POISONS, NUCLEAR WEAPONS, e.t.c) but mighty in God (prayers) for pulling down strongholds". If prayers of faith can move mountains what is the need of moving the mountain with AK 47. 5. 1 John 2:15-17,(NKJV) "love not the world..." As christians we should sepearate from the world and its associations-2 Corithians 6:14 -18, should we be fighting and protecting the world we a re commanded to disassociate from and hate. 6. Galatians 5;20 (KJV), a christian should not fight and should be free from strife which is fighting and war is such. 7. Numbers 31:19-20(KJV), if those who killed in war commanded by God is seen as unclean and hence sinners by him, what about those who killed in wars commanded by man with selfishness and gredd as undertone. Colin Aduah From Nigeria. Please let us not deceive ourselves, on no account should a christian, drop the bible, pick up AK 47 , heads to war and starts snuffing lives out of people, why-
1. Luke 3;14(KJV) “do violence to no man….” It didnt say do violence to enemy soldiers or your enemies.It didnt say either do no violence to your friend and collegues. what is violence? act of hurting or killing someone. In short he was telling them to get out of the millitary becaus e there is no way you cant do violence in military.
2. Hebrews 12:2, (KJV) “looking unto Jesus….” Jesus is to be our example . He never enlisted in the army ,like wise we. And , I cant believe that Jesus if He is alive today will leave the main purpose of His coming (“that the world through Him might be saved” John 3:17), to save the sinners and armed robbers and start sending them untimely to hellfire. Christ is not willing that any should perish,but for them to repent and go to heaven (2 Peter 3;9, Luke 5:31).He Christ has given us this mandate too,(John20:21), and not to carry guns ,bombs and knives.
3. John 10:10(KJV) “the thief (satan) cometh not but to steal ,kill, and destroy…” This is what is done mainly in war. War is the will of satan and christians should not help satan fufill his will. We should fulfill the will of God which is to make disciples of all nations(both enemy nations and friendly nations-Matthew 28:19). the will of God on the other hand is also that all (both enemies and friends, both sinners and saints) people should have life and life abundant ( have life on earth and more abundantly in eternity).
4. 2 Corinthians 10:4(NKJV) “the weapon of our warfare are not carnal(physical; as in AK 47,BOMBS,KINVES,POISONS, NUCLEAR WEAPONS, e.t.c) but mighty in God (prayers) for pulling down strongholds”. If prayers of faith can move mountains what is the need of moving the mountain with AK 47.
5. 1 John 2:15-17,(NKJV) “love not the world…” As christians we should sepearate from the world and its associations-2 Corithians 6:14 -18, should we be fighting and protecting the world we a re commanded to disassociate from and hate.
6. Galatians 5;20 (KJV), a christian should not fight and should be free from strife which is fighting and war is such.
7. Numbers 31:19-20(KJV), if those who killed in war commanded by God is seen as unclean and hence sinners by him, what about those who killed in wars commanded by man with selfishness and gredd as undertone.
Colin Aduah
From Nigeria.

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-148235 Bill Muehlenberg Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:40:14 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-148235 Thanks Jerry Two issues must be kept separate here. Christians are not forbidden to serve in the military or police forces. Thus a Christian may find himself – as a policeman – arresting another Christian, or a Christian – as a judge – might find himself sentencing another Christian to life imprisonment. In a fallen world this will happen all the time. It is another matter whether a Christian could have served in good faith in the Nazi military machine, or in a government that has clearly overstepped its biblical boundaries. Then the issue of civil disobedience may arise, which I have discussed elsewhere: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/02/christians-and-civil-disobedience/ Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Jerry

Two issues must be kept separate here. Christians are not forbidden to serve in the military or police forces. Thus a Christian may find himself – as a policeman – arresting another Christian, or a Christian – as a judge – might find himself sentencing another Christian to life imprisonment. In a fallen world this will happen all the time.

It is another matter whether a Christian could have served in good faith in the Nazi military machine, or in a government that has clearly overstepped its biblical boundaries. Then the issue of civil disobedience may arise, which I have discussed elsewhere: www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/11/02/christians-and-civil-disobedience/

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Jerry Stenstrom http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-148230 Jerry Stenstrom Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:03:44 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-148230 Raised a Lutheran, my brother was on his way to Germany when the war ended. While guarding German prisoners he wanted to know why they killed other Christians. They said they were told by their chaplains, and clergy that God was on Hitler's side! Am I wrong to conclude that their churches and chaplains, obeying "traditions of men that make void the word of God" (Matt. 15 and Mark 7) committed gross sin against Jesus' "new commandment" to "love one another?" Aren't clergy today's pharisees??? Jerry Stenstrom Raised a Lutheran, my brother was on his way to Germany when the war ended. While guarding German prisoners he wanted to know why they killed other Christians. They said they were told by their chaplains, and clergy that God was on Hitler’s side! Am I wrong to conclude that their churches and chaplains, obeying “traditions of men that make void the word of God” (Matt. 15 and Mark 7) committed gross sin against Jesus’ “new commandment” to “love one another?” Aren’t clergy today’s pharisees???
Jerry Stenstrom

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-121031 Bill Muehlenberg Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:37:18 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-121031 Thanks Johann But you are putting your ideological blinders on the Scriptures here. Jesus is God, and God commanded or allowed killing (as in the death penalty, self-defence and just war). I have made this case in various places, including these: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2006/09/11/is-it-ever-right-to-kill/ http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/11/on-capital-punishment-part-1/ http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/12/on-capital-punishment-part-2/ And you obviously have real problems with the book of Revelation. Try giving it a read sometime. Who is worshipped in heaven for using the sword to strike down the enemies of God? Try chapters 18 and 19 for example. This is the same Jesus you are trying to turn into a pacifist. Sorry, but I will stick with the Bible on this one. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Johann

But you are putting your ideological blinders on the Scriptures here. Jesus is God, and God commanded or allowed killing (as in the death penalty, self-defence and just war). I have made this case in various places, including these:
www.billmuehlenberg.com/2006/09/11/is-it-ever-right-to-kill/
www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/11/on-capital-punishment-part-1/
www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/12/on-capital-punishment-part-2/

And you obviously have real problems with the book of Revelation. Try giving it a read sometime. Who is worshipped in heaven for using the sword to strike down the enemies of God? Try chapters 18 and 19 for example. This is the same Jesus you are trying to turn into a pacifist. Sorry, but I will stick with the Bible on this one.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Johann Blake http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/comment-page-1/#comment-120830 Johann Blake Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:07:48 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/03/23/were-the-early-christians-pacifists/#comment-120830 Jesus was a pacifist in the pure sense of that word. He was not a peacemaker. On the contrary, he even stated that he did not come to bring peace but division. Why did Peter draw the sword and cut off the servant's ear? Because Peter didn't know better. Even Jesus told him to put away his sword. And never forget, it was Jesus who did just the opposite with the servant. He healed his ear. He didn't hurt the man like Peter but did good to him. If you do your research properly, you will discover that being a pacifist was absolutely mandatory for being a christian in the early church. To state that the centurion who was baptized by Peter was justified to serve in the army is simply taking that example out of context. That man loved the Jews. He built their synagogues and gave to the poor. Scripture does not say he remained in the army. God saw his heart and out of love for him, sent him Peter who would reveal a deeper truth that hadn't been revealed to him up till that time. Constantine was undeniably the greatest heretic for taking the name of Christ and using it to kill others. If he had any idea of the teachings of Christ, he would know beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus taught without question, "Love your enemies". Killing them as though you were doing God a service is a fallacy that lead many Christians down the wrong way. The sad thing of all is that this fallacy has been justified over and over again until this present day. Killing never brings peace, not even when it's called "Just war". When anyone takes the life of another person who was never saved, he takes from him his chance of salvation. Nobody will be held innocent on the Day of Judgement who has terminated the life of another person who was not saved. Christians were called to lay their life down for their friends, but even for their enemies. That is how a war is won. That is the nature of Christ, who went to his death like a slaughtered lamb. Who do we think we are that we are better than he was and fight for our life or take the life of another person? Sorry to tell you if you haven't heard otherwise, but the "Just War" principle was one of Satan's greatest achievements. Blessed are those though who lost their lives as pacifists, who were imprisoned for being a pacifist and were hated and treated as scum for being a pacifist. They are the ones who share in Christ's glory. Johann Blake Jesus was a pacifist in the pure sense of that word. He was not a peacemaker. On the contrary, he even stated that he did not come to bring peace but division. Why did Peter draw the sword and cut off the servant’s ear? Because Peter didn’t know better. Even Jesus told him to put away his sword. And never forget, it was Jesus who did just the opposite with the servant. He healed his ear. He didn’t hurt the man like Peter but did good to him.

If you do your research properly, you will discover that being a pacifist was absolutely mandatory for being a christian in the early church. To state that the centurion who was baptized by Peter was justified to serve in the army is simply taking that example out of context. That man loved the Jews. He built their synagogues and gave to the poor. Scripture does not say he remained in the army. God saw his heart and out of love for him, sent him Peter who would reveal a deeper truth that hadn’t been revealed to him up till that time.

Constantine was undeniably the greatest heretic for taking the name of Christ and using it to kill others. If he had any idea of the teachings of Christ, he would know beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus taught without question, “Love your enemies”. Killing them as though you were doing God a service is a fallacy that lead many Christians down the wrong way.

The sad thing of all is that this fallacy has been justified over and over again until this present day. Killing never brings peace, not even when it’s called “Just war”. When anyone takes the life of another person who was never saved, he takes from him his chance of salvation. Nobody will be held innocent on the Day of Judgement who has terminated the life of another person who was not saved. Christians were called to lay their life down for their friends, but even for their enemies. That is how a war is won. That is the nature of Christ, who went to his death like a slaughtered lamb. Who do we think we are that we are better than he was and fight for our life or take the life of another person? Sorry to tell you if you haven’t heard otherwise, but the “Just War” principle was one of Satan’s greatest achievements. Blessed are those though who lost their lives as pacifists, who were imprisoned for being a pacifist and were hated and treated as scum for being a pacifist. They are the ones who share in Christ’s glory.
Johann Blake

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