Comments on: Love and Hate in an Age of Tolerance http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Sat, 11 Feb 2012 02:03:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Dee Graf http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-8106 Dee Graf Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:17:46 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-8106 I've participated in a discussion on this on another site where there were mostly non-Christians who were also passionate Conservatives and their reactions to this poster displayed what is essentially wrong with the poster. They saw it as provocative in that it seemed to align itself with the antiwar Left, thereby ingratiating itself with the MSM and the prevailing political climate. In my opinion, it was a question of focus. As Bill pointed out so well above, it's one thing to love the sinner but... And that 'but' should always hang there, for although God unconditionally loves us, the love of God is not what we have come to interpret as love in our permissive culture. For many people, love means being let off the hook, coddled, spoilt, which comes from our indoctrination by the spirit of the age. God's love is red hot and not averse to sending us to eternal damnation if we choose not to follow the rules. Nowhere does this sign give the necessary 'but' which would clarify that the love is a Biblical love and nothing less. Dee Graf I’ve participated in a discussion on this on another site where there were mostly non-Christians who were also passionate Conservatives and their reactions to this poster displayed what is essentially wrong with the poster. They saw it as provocative in that it seemed to align itself with the antiwar Left, thereby ingratiating itself with the MSM and the prevailing political climate.
In my opinion, it was a question of focus. As Bill pointed out so well above, it’s one thing to love the sinner but… And that ‘but’ should always hang there, for although God unconditionally loves us, the love of God is not what we have come to interpret as love in our permissive culture. For many people, love means being let off the hook, coddled, spoilt, which comes from our indoctrination by the spirit of the age. God’s love is red hot and not averse to sending us to eternal damnation if we choose not to follow the rules.
Nowhere does this sign give the necessary ‘but’ which would clarify that the love is a Biblical love and nothing less.
Dee Graf

]]> By: Jonathan Sarfati http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-7378 Jonathan Sarfati Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:05:26 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-7378 Jim Reiher is a candidate for the Green Party, which has as its official platform hunting down and killing "unwanted" unborn babies. Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane Jim Reiher is a candidate for the Green Party, which has as its official platform hunting down and killing “unwanted” unborn babies.
Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-7223 Bill Muehlenberg Sat, 03 Mar 2007 06:44:22 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-7223 Thanks Zenobia Evil certainly exists, and lack of education, etc., may well be components of it. But I would argue that the root cause is much deeper. It is what the Bible calls sin, or what we can call selfishness. It is a problem that plagues every one of us, and unfortunately self-cures are insufficient here. That is why God took the radical step of sending his son to finally deal with the sin issue. Acknowledging our own sin, receiving the forgiveness offered in Christ, and allowing him to be the boss of our lives is the first step in curtailing evil. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Zenobia

Evil certainly exists, and lack of education, etc., may well be components of it. But I would argue that the root cause is much deeper. It is what the Bible calls sin, or what we can call selfishness. It is a problem that plagues every one of us, and unfortunately self-cures are insufficient here. That is why God took the radical step of sending his son to finally deal with the sin issue. Acknowledging our own sin, receiving the forgiveness offered in Christ, and allowing him to be the boss of our lives is the first step in curtailing evil.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Zenobia Frost http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-7219 Zenobia Frost Sat, 03 Mar 2007 06:27:18 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-7219 <i>Moreover, the idea of evil has been largely abandoned. In an age of moral relativism, many dismiss the very notion of evil. And most cannot even bring themselves to say that there might actually be evil people in the world. Instead, there are only victims, misguided people, those lacking in education, and so on. Any bad actions tend to be put down to a lousy upbringing, a poor self-image, or are seen as the fault of society, and so on.</i> Yes, evil definitely exists - we acknowledge that constantly through the media and through literature, but it must always have a CAUSE - namely a lack of education, a turbulent upbringing, misguidance etc. Evil, violent acts are still inexcusable. It is these roots that must be adressed <i>alongside</i> the 'evil acts'. Zenobia Frost Moreover, the idea of evil has been largely abandoned. In an age of moral relativism, many dismiss the very notion of evil. And most cannot even bring themselves to say that there might actually be evil people in the world. Instead, there are only victims, misguided people, those lacking in education, and so on. Any bad actions tend to be put down to a lousy upbringing, a poor self-image, or are seen as the fault of society, and so on.

Yes, evil definitely exists – we acknowledge that constantly through the media and through literature, but it must always have a CAUSE – namely a lack of education, a turbulent upbringing, misguidance etc. Evil, violent acts are still inexcusable. It is these roots that must be adressed alongside the ‘evil acts’.

Zenobia Frost

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-6996 Bill Muehlenberg Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:15:27 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-6996 Thanks Mark Some of the bigger and better book store chains such as Borders should have it. Certainly it can be picked up through amazon.com Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks Mark

Some of the bigger and better book store chains such as Borders should have it. Certainly it can be picked up through amazon.com

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: Mark Young http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-6993 Mark Young Wed, 28 Feb 2007 04:20:06 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-6993 Dear Bill, Thanks for your article - to me it is spot on! Can you tell me where I might be able to purchase the book you recommended in early Feb? It is called America Alone by Mark Steyn. Ta, Mark Young Dear Bill,

Thanks for your article – to me it is spot on! Can you tell me where I might be able to purchase the book you recommended in early Feb? It is called America Alone by Mark Steyn.

Ta, Mark Young

]]> By: Bill Muehlenberg http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-6726 Bill Muehlenberg Sat, 24 Feb 2007 04:58:56 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-6726 Thanks again Dale But I take biblical love to mean willing the highest good for the other person. Thus I would like to see Osama become a believer, sure, but that does not mean he gets off the hook if he does. If he becomes a believer, great, but he still must face the music. That is the biblical understanding of government, and I have no problem with holding to both positions simultaneously. Perhaps you are having difficulty in reconciling love and justice. God does not see the two as mutually exclusive, and neither should his people. Without God’s very real help, I am not sure I “actively love” anyone, whatever that means. And what does “doing good to him” mean? Loving him and doing good to him would seem to entail letting him know that what he is doing is wrong and that he is heading for a lost eternity. He needs to repent, become a follower of Jesus, and then be willing to accept the consequences of his actions. The early disciples were willing to do that as well. They knew that if at times they had to actively resist Roman laws in order to preach the gospel, they had to be willing to accept the consequences, e.g., spending some time in prison. As to Paul being “complicit in the murder of people” - it is an interesting question, but it simply raises more questions (based on Acts 26:10): Was Paul a member of the Sanhedrin? Was there in fact more than one death that he was involved in (besides Stephen)? Did he simply just give his assent to the death? Could Jews legally put people to death? Did the Roman rulers not think it was something requiring prosecution? We cannot really give any final answers to these sorts of questions. But the case of Saul/Paul does not seem to detract from anything I have said above. Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch Thanks again Dale

But I take biblical love to mean willing the highest good for the other person. Thus I would like to see Osama become a believer, sure, but that does not mean he gets off the hook if he does. If he becomes a believer, great, but he still must face the music.

That is the biblical understanding of government, and I have no problem with holding to both positions simultaneously. Perhaps you are having difficulty in reconciling love and justice. God does not see the two as mutually exclusive, and neither should his people.

Without God’s very real help, I am not sure I “actively love” anyone, whatever that means. And what does “doing good to him” mean? Loving him and doing good to him would seem to entail letting him know that what he is doing is wrong and that he is heading for a lost eternity. He needs to repent, become a follower of Jesus, and then be willing to accept the consequences of his actions.

The early disciples were willing to do that as well. They knew that if at times they had to actively resist Roman laws in order to preach the gospel, they had to be willing to accept the consequences, e.g., spending some time in prison.

As to Paul being “complicit in the murder of people” – it is an interesting question, but it simply raises more questions (based on Acts 26:10): Was Paul a member of the Sanhedrin? Was there in fact more than one death that he was involved in (besides Stephen)? Did he simply just give his assent to the death? Could Jews legally put people to death? Did the Roman rulers not think it was something requiring prosecution? We cannot really give any final answers to these sorts of questions.

But the case of Saul/Paul does not seem to detract from anything I have said above.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

]]> By: AA Hoysted http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-6722 AA Hoysted Sat, 24 Feb 2007 04:16:26 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-6722 Whoever thought up the wording on that billboard was trying to be clever and catch the eye of passers-by. It certainly caught the eye all right, but missed the mark, and failed to convince. All it did was cause confusion and division. I would say to the writer "Don't try to be too clever". As an alternative how about "Jesus wants to forgive sinners, even YOU". AA Hoysted Whoever thought up the wording on that billboard was trying to be clever and catch the eye of passers-by. It certainly caught the eye all right, but missed the mark, and failed to convince.
All it did was cause confusion and division. I would say to the writer “Don’t try to be too clever”. As an alternative how about “Jesus wants to forgive sinners, even YOU”.
AA Hoysted

]]> By: Dale http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-6710 Dale Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:51:04 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-6710 Hi Bill Thanks for responding. I don't yet completely understand where you are going. Do you actively love your enemy Osama, will you pray for him to be blessed, are you going to do good to him? Yes or no (or perhaps 'Yes and no')? Kind regards Dale Flannery P.S. Though I commend the ethics of the IRA hit-man you mentioned, wasn't St. Paul complicit in the the murder of people in violation of Roman law before his conversion? Paul apparently did not think it was required by God for him to initiate prosecution in a Roman court for those crimes against the state. Your thoughts? Hi Bill
Thanks for responding. I don’t yet completely understand where you are going. Do you actively love your enemy Osama, will you pray for him to be blessed, are you going to do good to him? Yes or no (or perhaps ‘Yes and no’)?
Kind regards
Dale Flannery

P.S. Though I commend the ethics of the IRA hit-man you mentioned, wasn’t St. Paul complicit in the the murder of people in violation of Roman law before his conversion? Paul apparently did not think it was required by God for him to initiate prosecution in a Roman court for those crimes against the state. Your thoughts?

]]> By: Sue Pollock http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/comment-page-1/#comment-6658 Sue Pollock Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:29:37 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/02/22/love-and-hate-in-an-age-of-tolerance/#comment-6658 Hi Bill, Thank you for this. When this all blew up, I felt very frustrated with the mindset of many Christians which says that they can "make a grand statement" just to make everyone react - and that it is somehow clever to do so. They, like Osama, are accountable for the way their words impact people's lives - whether they draw people closer to the Kingdom of Heaven or place an even bigger divide between them. "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." I would suggest that more prayer be put into every public statement/outreach and that we support one another in prayer until we gain much wisdom in how to relate to those around us. If we want to be cute or divisive, we are not doing the work of the Lord. If we submit to His bidding, we will reach the hurting world around us for the better. Sue Pollock Hi Bill,

Thank you for this. When this all blew up, I felt very frustrated with the mindset of many Christians which says that they can “make a grand statement” just to make everyone react – and that it is somehow clever to do so. They, like Osama, are accountable for the way their words impact people’s lives – whether they draw people closer to the Kingdom of Heaven or place an even bigger divide between them. “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”

I would suggest that more prayer be put into every public statement/outreach and that we support one another in prayer until we gain much wisdom in how to relate to those around us.

If we want to be cute or divisive, we are not doing the work of the Lord. If we submit to His bidding, we will reach the hurting world around us for the better.

Sue Pollock

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