Comments on: The Death of a Dictator http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/ Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day... Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:08:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Jonathan Sarfati http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3849 Jonathan Sarfati Sat, 13 Jan 2007 06:39:14 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3849 Damien Genesis 9:5 is the key: <blockquote>For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.</blockquote> The word "require" shows that this is a command, by the <I>meaning</i> of the word, even though it is <i>qal</i> imperfect. BTW, I support learning the biblical languages and contexts to understand the Bible. Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane Damien

Genesis 9:5 is the key:

For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

The word “require” shows that this is a command, by the meaning of the word, even though it is qal imperfect.

BTW, I support learning the biblical languages and contexts to understand the Bible.
Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

]]> By: Damien Carson http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3819 Damien Carson Fri, 12 Jan 2007 22:39:22 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3819 Jonathon - I agree with you that context is of the highest importance but it cannot be the sole determining factor of the meaning of a verse, otherwise, why would we invest the blood sweat and tears that we do in learning the Biblical languages (okay, so there is no blood!). But the matter of context is one to be taken up: (an honest question - no sarcasm intended) are there any examples in Genesis or the wider Pentateuch of commandments phrased in a voice (or "mode" in Hebrew) other than imperative, or is Genesis 9:6 unique? I will stand corrected, but I don't believe that the subjunctive is ever used or could ever be used as a command ("let him be taken away" isn't subjunctive, is it? I would have thought it would be passive imperative in Greek; jussive or hortatory in Hebrew). Second, are there any other covenants in which God does not speak directly to the person/nation when making his promise/condition? Genesis 6:9 is a statement of fact and we need to have a basis for considering it a covenantal commandment. PS: I agree with Paul that we should submit to the rulers of the day, which includes "do the crime, do the time", even in the case of capital punishment. Damien Carson Jonathon – I agree with you that context is of the highest importance but it cannot be the sole determining factor of the meaning of a verse, otherwise, why would we invest the blood sweat and tears that we do in learning the Biblical languages (okay, so there is no blood!). But the matter of context is one to be taken up: (an honest question – no sarcasm intended) are there any examples in Genesis or the wider Pentateuch of commandments phrased in a voice (or “mode” in Hebrew) other than imperative, or is Genesis 9:6 unique? I will stand corrected, but I don’t believe that the subjunctive is ever used or could ever be used as a command (“let him be taken away” isn’t subjunctive, is it? I would have thought it would be passive imperative in Greek; jussive or hortatory in Hebrew).

Second, are there any other covenants in which God does not speak directly to the person/nation when making his promise/condition? Genesis 6:9 is a statement of fact and we need to have a basis for considering it a covenantal commandment.

PS: I agree with Paul that we should submit to the rulers of the day, which includes “do the crime, do the time”, even in the case of capital punishment.
Damien Carson

]]> By: Jonathan Sarfati http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3728 Jonathan Sarfati Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:59:36 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3728 andrew lake You're welcome. Although I would rather hope that my politics align with my Christianity not vice versa. That is why I am not a member of any political party. C.S. Lewis warned long ago against "Christianity and ..." But you are right that Christians will find biblical support for supporting the death penalty for murder (and opposing it for unwanted babies in the womb). I'm not sure what rogue states you mean though, perhaps the leftist darling of Cuba, or maybe the former Soviet Union? Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane andrew lake

You’re welcome. Although I would rather hope that my politics align with my Christianity not vice versa. That is why I am not a member of any political party. C.S. Lewis warned long ago against “Christianity and …”

But you are right that Christians will find biblical support for supporting the death penalty for murder (and opposing it for unwanted babies in the womb). I’m not sure what rogue states you mean though, perhaps the leftist darling of Cuba, or maybe the former Soviet Union?

Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

]]> By: Jonathan Sarfati http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3727 Jonathan Sarfati Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:55:43 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3727 Damien Carson (Genesis 9:4-6 is future indicative, not imperative. Genesis 9:7 is a mandate because it is imperative). It takes more than looking up a tense-voice-mood program to deny the clear command in the Noahic covenant. There are more ways of giving commands than using a formal imperative. E.g. even in English "let him be taken away" is often a command even though it is formally in the subjunctive mood. Context determines meaning, and in Genesis 9 the context is God saying, "And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man." In any case, Paul reaffirms that the government does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13). He also said, "If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die (Acts 25:11)" which states that there are crimes worthy of the death penalty. This is post-Mosaic. Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane Damien Carson

(Genesis 9:4-6 is future indicative, not imperative. Genesis 9:7 is a mandate because it is imperative).

It takes more than looking up a tense-voice-mood program to deny the clear command in the Noahic covenant. There are more ways of giving commands than using a formal imperative. E.g. even in English “let him be taken away” is often a command even though it is formally in the subjunctive mood. Context determines meaning, and in Genesis 9 the context is God saying, “And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.”

In any case, Paul reaffirms that the government does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13). He also said, “If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die (Acts 25:11)” which states that there are crimes worthy of the death penalty. This is post-Mosaic.

Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

]]> By: Damien Carson http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3680 Damien Carson Thu, 11 Jan 2007 02:42:40 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3680 Another quick comment - the death penalty is all about dignity, and if there is a way of Gen 9 being properly understood to be referring to capital punishment, then the rational for capital punishment in this verse would be clear: "his blood shall be shed because man is created in God's image". Justice is that the sentence is carried out. Injustice is that the executioners take it upon themselves to add to the sentence, say, by heckling or tormenting the dead man walking. Damien Carson Another quick comment – the death penalty is all about dignity, and if there is a way of Gen 9 being properly understood to be referring to capital punishment, then the rational for capital punishment in this verse would be clear: “his blood shall be shed because man is created in God’s image”.

Justice is that the sentence is carried out. Injustice is that the executioners take it upon themselves to add to the sentence, say, by heckling or tormenting the dead man walking.

Damien Carson

]]> By: Damien Carson http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3678 Damien Carson Thu, 11 Jan 2007 02:31:08 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3678 I'm sorry if I was unclear, but what I meant to say was, I am unclear. I used the word ambivalent in the sense of "to be in two minds" that is, to have a conflicting view or opinion about something. I am genuinely in two minds - I see the benefits of capital punishment, I see it's abuses and I fail to see a commandment from God that a nation ought to apply it. Because I am ambivalent about capital punishment I do not support it. Ewan, I agree with you that Gen 9:6 is universally addressed to mankind and that it wasn't a part of the Mosaic Law... and that is my whole point. I think where we probably differ is whether or not Genesis 9:6 is a commandment or mandate that governments should apply capital punishment to murderers. Exegetically, I can't see any way of coming to that conclusion. Look at the verbs - those that talk about the requirement of blood in Genesis 9:4-6 are future indicative (or for Hebrew readers, Qal imperfect), not imperative. Genesis 9:7 is command/mandate because it is imperative. Damien Carson I’m sorry if I was unclear, but what I meant to say was, I am unclear. I used the word ambivalent in the sense of “to be in two minds” that is, to have a conflicting view or opinion about something. I am genuinely in two minds – I see the benefits of capital punishment, I see it’s abuses and I fail to see a commandment from God that a nation ought to apply it. Because I am ambivalent about capital punishment I do not support it.

Ewan, I agree with you that Gen 9:6 is universally addressed to mankind and that it wasn’t a part of the Mosaic Law… and that is my whole point. I think where we probably differ is whether or not Genesis 9:6 is a commandment or mandate that governments should apply capital punishment to murderers. Exegetically, I can’t see any way of coming to that conclusion. Look at the verbs – those that talk about the requirement of blood in Genesis 9:4-6 are future indicative (or for Hebrew readers, Qal imperfect), not imperative. Genesis 9:7 is command/mandate because it is imperative.

Damien Carson

]]> By: Ewan http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3540 Ewan Tue, 09 Jan 2007 02:49:20 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3540 Damien says he is "genuinely ambivalent about capital punishment" but then goes on to say he does "not support the death penalty". So which is it? I also used to be ambivalent about capital punishment until I understood that Genesis 9:6 was given to Noah before the existence of Israel and so is in an entirely different category to the Mosaic Law. As such it is a mandate to all nations descended from Noah. It is about justice - "dignity" has nothing to do with it. Ewan McDonald, Victoria Damien says he is “genuinely ambivalent about capital punishment” but then goes on to say he does “not support the death penalty”. So which is it?

I also used to be ambivalent about capital punishment until I understood that Genesis 9:6 was given to Noah before the existence of Israel and so is in an entirely different category to the Mosaic Law. As such it is a mandate to all nations descended from Noah. It is about justice – “dignity” has nothing to do with it.

Ewan McDonald, Victoria

]]> By: Damien Carson http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3526 Damien Carson Mon, 08 Jan 2007 23:03:36 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3526 I am a conservative Christian but I am genuinely ambivalent about capital punishment. The Bible mandates the death penalty for murder in the theocratic Israelite nation but not for everyone else (Genesis 9:4-6 is future indicative, not imperative. Genesis 9:7 is a mandate because it is imperative). The Bible certainly allows for the death penalty but it is wrong to say that it mandates the practice with the exception of the nation that received the Mosaic Law. Saddam's execution is an excellent example of why I do not support the death penalty. Everyone knew from before the trial began that he would be executed, and the administration of the execution itself required more from Saddam than simply his life - it robed him of his dignity. That wasn't part of his sentence, and regardless of his guilt he was still a human being made in the image of God. Andrew: An apple is fruit but fruit is not an apple. Politically conservative Christianity is Christianity, but Christianity is not politically conservative Christianity. Damien Carson I am a conservative Christian but I am genuinely ambivalent about capital punishment. The Bible mandates the death penalty for murder in the theocratic Israelite nation but not for everyone else (Genesis 9:4-6 is future indicative, not imperative. Genesis 9:7 is a mandate because it is imperative). The Bible certainly allows for the death penalty but it is wrong to say that it mandates the practice with the exception of the nation that received the Mosaic Law.

Saddam’s execution is an excellent example of why I do not support the death penalty. Everyone knew from before the trial began that he would be executed, and the administration of the execution itself required more from Saddam than simply his life – it robed him of his dignity. That wasn’t part of his sentence, and regardless of his guilt he was still a human being made in the image of God.

Andrew: An apple is fruit but fruit is not an apple. Politically conservative Christianity is Christianity, but Christianity is not politically conservative Christianity.

Damien Carson

]]> By: Joshua Ferrara http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3508 Joshua Ferrara Mon, 08 Jan 2007 14:53:54 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3508 To the person that would suggest capital punishment is not Christian I would say (as a Christian) I am more that abundantly aware that in God's creation of a community under a theocracy (the history of Israel) there was capital punishment in the form of stoning. I’m not by any means suggesting we should return to stoning now, but im defending the pro capital punishment view of some Christians. So since God does not change and Jesus is the same now and forever - the suggestion and that Jesus is a peace loving non-violent hippy pushover is a misconception - this Jesus is the same Jesus who said 'If anyone cause one of these little ones, who believes in me, to sin. It would be better for that man to be tied to a mill stone and be cast into the sea' also this is the same Jesus who in Revelation returns to the Earth to defeat His enemy the beast and is dripping in blood. A little gruesome I know but a contrast to the peace loving hippy 'Jesus loves you' propaganda and closer to the real Jesus who is passionate about Justice being served in due time and by a righteous judge. Joshua Ferrara To the person that would suggest capital punishment is not Christian I would say (as a Christian) I am more that abundantly aware that in God’s creation of a community under a theocracy (the history of Israel) there was capital punishment in the form of stoning. I’m not by any means suggesting we should return to stoning now, but im defending the pro capital punishment view of some Christians. So since God does not change and Jesus is the same now and forever – the suggestion and that Jesus is a peace loving non-violent hippy pushover is a misconception – this Jesus is the same Jesus who said ‘If anyone cause one of these little ones, who believes in me, to sin. It would be better for that man to be tied to a mill stone and be cast into the sea’ also this is the same Jesus who in Revelation returns to the Earth to defeat His enemy the beast and is dripping in blood. A little gruesome I know but a contrast to the peace loving hippy ‘Jesus loves you’ propaganda and closer to the real Jesus who is passionate about Justice being served in due time and by a righteous judge.
Joshua Ferrara

]]> By: andrew lake http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/comment-page-1/#comment-3427 andrew lake Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:38:02 +0000 http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/01/03/the-death-of-a-dictator/#comment-3427 Thanks, Jonathan, For your clarificatory comments. I must say that as a non christian, I am much enjoying learning more about people's alternate opinions! I am also beginning to comprehend better why christianity aligns with the right of politics (using the bible to sanction the dealth penalty for example, champion rogue states when it suits, etc). Andrew Lake Thanks, Jonathan,

For your clarificatory comments. I must say that as a non christian, I am much enjoying learning more about people’s alternate opinions! I am also beginning to comprehend better why christianity aligns with the right of politics (using the bible to sanction the dealth penalty for example, champion rogue states when it suits, etc).

Andrew Lake

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