I have read Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell, and found it interesting, then again I was coming out of a life of sin and a life not in relationship with God. It attracted me showing me that God loves, that God desires to be near to us, now being a Christian for four years, I would not recommend it though.

Why?
Because it seems to swing to one side that, “there is no absolute truth, or that everyone has their own truth” which is outrageous. If you truly, Truly desire to know God, to understand God, go to the source, go to God’s Word the Bible… why take some author, or politician, or pastor, or even your parents word on it, seek out what the Bible really says about God, what it says His nature and character. In fact go to God, pray and ask Him to show you what you find of this nature and character in the Bible and I assure you, that you will be astonished at what you find! And how IMMENSELY closer you will get to God, and the calling He has on your life.

Bless ya heaps
Sara Freeman

Welcome back and thanks for trying to keep things shorter (as hard as that is), and yes we see some things differently here.

But again, I despair of the false dichotomies you present, as in your remark,” There’s a VAST difference in abiding in and following Christ in you, and seeking to follow His commands.” But why? Why cannot we have both, instead of either/or? Why do you offer yet another unbiblical polarity? Of course we must be in Christ, but we are in Christ so that we can keep his commands, as I already provided so many passages for.

With all due respect, most of the passages you provide (mostly from Paul) simply have to do with Paul refuting Jewish notions about the law. He is clearly telling them that simply trying to keep the law saves no one. No one can keep all the law, and so yes, the law condemns. But that is Paul’s argument with Jewish believers. Of course the law cannot save. I never said it could, nor do most Christians argue that. And of course we must be in Christ, of course it is about a love relationship, of course we are to abide in Christ.

And it is worrying, Allen, that you now seem to be dismissive of the entire Old Testament! Indeed, your second last paragraph has me a bit concerned! Do you see such a radical discontinuity between the OT and the NT that there is nothing of value there? Do you really believe that David, or Abraham, or Moses, was incapable of having a loving personal relationship with Yahweh? Sure, we can have even more with the indwelling HS today, but you seem to assume that the OT saints had nothing but legalism and rule keeping. It seems your theological stance not only leads you to an unbiblical antinomianism, but to a hyper-dispensationalism as well.

Yahweh gave the law to Israel after he already entered into a saving relationship with them. The exodus was God’s initiative, with the law coming afterwards simply as an ethical expression of what that loving covenant relationship was to be all about. Again, the law cannot save. But the law is good, as Paul says. It reflects who God is, and informs us about his holiness, righteousness, and so on. Coming to Christ does not mean that the holy and righteous standards of God just disappear.

But I too must keep things short, so thanks again for sharing. As I say, we may have to agree to disagree.

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

Dear brother, it’s clear that in some regards we’re standing on both sides of a proverbial canyon, and we’re struggling to speak across the gap, although I’m enjoying the dialogue. You’re a good sport and a fair moderator. I’m fairly sure I won’t convince you of anything, but here are some final observations on these matters.

I’m not saying that we are to live disobedient or lawless, nor am I ignoring the whole of the Word. I’m saying that the Word of God makes it clear that it’s impossible for us to be truly obedient on our own effort or by following rules (again, I refer back to Adam and Eve as the very first and best example of that futility – we can all look in the mirror for other good examples).

John 15:5 sets the context for ALL discussions of obedience or any works in those who are in union with Christ. We can do nothing real without it coming from the relationship. Obedience and works are a by-product of relationship, not an equal partner – not a second “wing” of the plane, regardless of what D.A. Carson may write.

We can only truly follow/obey Christ (and do anything eternal) out of the relationship with Him- not out of trying to be obedient to a list of rules or values.

There’s a VAST difference in abiding in and following Christ in you, and seeking to follow His commands. Therein lies our gap. Information and behavior are not a substitute for the relationship, nor are they equals. They do have a role in our life, but not the primary role most Christians have been taught.

True obedience to Christ will flow out of the moment-by-moment relationship with Him, through the Spirit. Relationship always comes FIRST in the new covenant with Christ. Abiding in the relationship NEVER leads us into true disobdience, although we certainly go there on our own sometimes (all of us). At other times the Spirit may lead us in ways that may seem disobedient to a legallist. “Seem” being the key word there.

Here is the ironic gap in understanding I see rampant in our evangelical Church of “self-effort” (Gal 3:3) and in my own teaching for many years (so I’m sympathetic to the struggle, because I’m still entangled in it also). According to the Word of God, within the New Covenant (key context) focusing on the law and the rules in an attempt to live obedient is in reality totally counter-productive to our goal, while also fostering a deceptive, comparative self-righeousness.

Pay close attention to Romans 7. Trying to live by the law actually stimulates or fertilizes sin in us (7:5), according to Paul. Right? Notice the example he uses in v7. Coveting. Such a wise example. Coveting is not an obvious, visible moral failure, but a rampant source of internal disobedience even in most moral people. We don’t avoid coveting by our effort – or even by our will- but only by the Spirit in us.

Notice that Paul says we are released from the Law in v 6, to serve in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter. What portion of the Law is he referring to? The portion that contains “Thou shalt not covet”….Right? That’s not merely ceremonial law. He’s referring to the core of the Mosaic Law based on the example in Rom 7. What to do with that if rules are equallly important to relationship???? We get the same message repeatedly in Galatians and Hebrews also. We now live by the Spirit (relational presence), not the Law..but we do not live lawless. Huh?

When we live by and walk in the Spirit, He fulfils the Law through us. But only He can do that. Our flesh efforts at obedience are like filthy rags.

John 15:5 (“abide in me…”) IS a key part of the whole, and helps to define the whole, in one of the most important passages of Scripture in all of the Word – since this was part of the last discourse of Jesus with His disciples. Sort of a death-bed conversation (John 14-17). When you know you have one last evening with your family or friends you focus on what is most important. Pay close attention to what Christ taught there, because it is helping to define what is about to come for His followers.

The point of the New Covenant that is about to come is that He will live in them, and they can do nothing (including being truly obedient) outside an intimate, abiding, “mystical” (oh, that dreaded word) relationship with the Spirit of Christ in them. But in that relationship all things are possible, including obedience.

If you miss that defining point in the Word, then nothing else makes sense except trying harder to be good….which is a tragic and unnecessary reprise of living by Law.

Also, if you are going to quote Old Testament passages about the Law to demonstrate our present relationship in Christ, it’s clear that the New Covenant perspective in the Word has not yet dawned. The relationship that pre-Calvary followers had with the Law of God is MUCH different than the relationship we have with the Law through the risen Christ. We are set free from the Law, once it tutors/leads/directs us to Christ. Study Galatians, Romans and Hebrews (and 1 Timothy 1:8-11) for more on that. Please.

Hey, I think I cut my post length by at least 40% over the last two. If I come back I’ll make the next one even shorter.

Grace and peace.

Allen Haynes, Knoxville, Tennessee

But a few problems here. First, try to keep in mind my rule about keeping comments short please! I know this can be hard to do when discussing important issues. And we seem to be covering a lot of old ground here. Also, you seem to simply ignore all the many passages provided which you happen to disagree with. As a pastor, you should know that we must allow all of God’s Word to inform our theology, not just pick and choose those bits which happen to fit our case, and ignore those that do not.

But perhaps most importantly, if I read your latest comment correctly, it seems you have been radically misunderstanding me all along. You imply that I am speaking about unbelievers here. If so, I must point out that nowhere in my many comments here, or in the original article, did I have unbelievers in mind. I have always been referring only to believers. Perhaps with this misunderstanding sorted out, we might have cleared things up a bit, and may find more common ground between us. But otherwise we might have to agree to disagree on some of these things.

And my point still stands: those who love God will love his ways and his commands. That is so clear in Scripture that it surprises me and saddens me to see a pastor simply throw these hundreds of texts out the window. Let me just cite five, all which are plain as day:

Psalm 119:1-2 Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the LORD. Blessed are they who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart.
Psalm 119: 97 Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
John 15: 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.

Of course this all comes out of a love relationship – no one is denying this. But the two go together. It is simply unbiblical to separate here what God has joined together.

Now, the altogether different question of how God’s laws apply to unbelievers is a much different discussion. I have written on this elsewhere on this site. I really do believe we have a biblical obligation to be salt and light in this world. Of course no unbeliever will be saved by seeking to keep the law. But that is not what I am arguing for.

Everyone seeks to impose his or her values and beliefs on the rest of society. Christians have as much right as anyone else to make their case in the public arena. And God’s standards apply to all people. As just one example, the Old Testament prophets could use the exact same message and language when speaking against pagan nations as they did when speaking to God’s covenant people. But see my various articles where I seek to make that case:
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/11/27/salt-and-light-business/
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/1997/10/10/the-case-for-christian-social-involvement/
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2006/07/11/why-bother/

In sum, thanks again for your thoughts. I must close with the words of D.A. Carson, who, after discussing the same issues (in his book, Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church – Zondervan, 2005), makes this strong, but needed, comment:

“So which shall we choose? Experience or truth? The left wing of an airplane, or the right? Love or integrity? Study or service? Evangelism or discipleship? The front wheels of a car, or the rear? Subjective knowledge or objective knowledge? Faith or obedience? Damn all false antitheses to hell, for they generate false gods, they perpetuate idols, they twist and distort our souls, they launch the church into violent pendulum swings whose oscillations succeed only in dividing brothers and sister in Christ.”

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

I’d like to respond to your statement below, since I believe the passage you quote does the opposite of scuttling the dichotomy you reference.

“But the hundred of commands given to believers in the NT simply shows that the emergent dualism on this issue is biblically untenable. And just one quote from Jesus should really settle this whole discussion: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). I should think that one passage alone is more than sufficient to scuttle this unnecessary dichotomy.” -Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

How we understand the crucial truth in this passage depends on the lens through which we read it.

Jesus says “If you love me, you will keep my commandments”. We know that is absolutely true, but what does that mean in the context of the Word of God?

Does it mean that if we keep His commandments, then that proves we love Him? I think not. First, no one keeps all the commandments, all the time. We can’t do it. That’s one of the primary points of the law. It’s impossible to keep it all – and if you break any of it, you break all of it – right?
At best we are all temporary law-keepers, so does that make us temporary lovers of Christ? Hopefully not.

Second, even some unbelievers can seem to keep the moral commands in the Word of God as well or better than those who do believe, even without relationship (love) with Christ. Notice I don’t say they keep the commands, they just seem to do as well. See the modern Mormons for example, or the ancient Pharisees. They far outclass most Christians if you are judging on who keeps the rules better, and who lives at a higher moral standard.

In summary of the first point, no one keeps the commands (truly) and even unbelievers can seem to do a better job of trying to keep them then many believers. So keeping God’s commands doesn’t prove we love Jesus, nor does it lead us into love with Him (again, see the Pharisees).

So what was the intent of Jesus in making this statment?

Notice the order of the statements. It’s essentially an IF-THEN statement. If “A” is true, then “B”.

Jesus is saying, IF the relationship comes first (if you love me), THEN we will keep the commandments.

OK. What’s so significant about that? Let’s let scripture interpret scripture.

Jesus also says in John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”

Apart from Him we can do nothing…including truly keeping the commands. Love is relationship. Abiding/remaining is the essence of moment-by-moment relationship in John’s writings. John was a deeply relational lover of Jesus, and seemed to “get this” better than any of the other disciples. Who snuggled up on the chest of Jesus at the last supper? John understood that it was about love first. Putting relationship with Christ above everything else leads us to holiness. Focusing on keeping the law/rules/commands leads to frustration and self-righteousness.

So anyway, Jesus says in John 15 that we can do nothing (of eternal significance) outside the continual intimacy of a relationship with Him. In fact, Paul says in Gal. 2:20 that Paul no longer lives, but Christ lives in Him. So we are abiding in the Life that now dwells in us – His Life.

There’s a lot more to be said about that, but I’m already going too long.

Bottom line is this. Only Jesus Christ can keep and fulfill the commands of Jesus Christ, both in terms of exterior behavior and internal heart attitude.

So, there is only one way we can truly “obey the commands” and that is to live from an intimate, abiding relationship with Jesus Christ who lives in us – and who longs to fulfill His commands through us.

An abiding relationship with Christ will alway lead us to fulfill His commands, as He expresses His Life through us. When we live in an abiding harmony with the Spirit of Christ in us, then He lives through us – and He will never live in opposition to His nature. The commands/law/rules of the Bible are an expression of His holy and loving character and nature – and thus when we are abiding in the relationship His life is what we manifest.

So, teaching people to follow Jesus’ commands or the Bible’s rules is pointless, unless you simply want to create a moral culture. You don’t need Christ for a temporarily or externally moral culture. Again, see the modern Mormons or the ancient Pharisees for examples of the fruit of such a culture…as well as much of the modern, institutional church. Morality is a horrible substitute for abiding in Christ, but righteousness is an important by-product of truly abiding in Him.

To teach people to pursue rule-keeping or command-keeping outside an intimate, abiding relationship with Christ is deadly, a ministry of death and condemnation to the people who are set free from the law, and are now in Christ. To put the rulues on the same level as the relationship is to completely miss the essence of the new covenant in Christ.

Let’s let the Word of god make that point. Here’s what Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 3:7-11. Notice what he calls the ministry of death and condemnation.

“But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory”-2Cor 3:7-11

I invite you to ponder the meaning of that passage when it comes to the perspective of rule-keeping.

A loving, abiding relationship with Christ comes first and foremost. True holiness (living the commands) flows out of that intimacy with God. There is no other source of holiness or righteousness. Our best version of righteousness is filthy rags according to Isaiah. Right?

I hope that’s helpful. I’m going to read your other blog on this issue today. I’ve been away for most of the summer.

Thanks for a forum on which we can test and wrestle with what is true in love.

Your brother,

Allen Haynes, Knoxville, Tennessee

I appreciate your thoughts, and am sympathetic in part to them. But with all due respect, could it be that you are doing exactly what you evidently disapprove of: setting boundaries and putting people inside or outside the center as you see it? You seem to imply that you are in the right or proper camp here, while those who differ with you may not be.

Indeed, despite your seeming dislike of the “logical, empirical, linear form of education and discipleship”, you are in fact making various points here, and expecting your readers to either agree or disagree with their validity and logical soundness.

And you seem to want to continue what many see as a false dilemma created by those in, or sympathetic to, the emergent camp. Once again, the Bible knows of no such distinctions. It can affirm simultaneously that we are to be about loving relationships, with Jesus at the core, while also affirming the importance of sound doctrine (thus the need for debates – whether they are heated or not is another matter). The biblical position demands purity of life and purity of doctrine. One cannot read the NT without seeing this stressed constantly.

I have been reading Psalm 119 again this morning. It seems pretty hard to separate a love relationship with God from loving his law. They go hand in glove. And the importance of sound doctrine is everywhere hammered home in the NT. This idea that there are no clear boundaries and that we should perhaps just ease up on theological orthodoxy is simply foreign to the NT.

Was Paul involved in “the Pharisaical pride that judges those who question our indoctrinational approach to Orthodoxy” when he withstood Peter to the face? Or when he said anyone who preaches another doctrine should be accursed? Or when he said watch your life and your doctrine closely? Why do you imply that whenever one seeks to stand for biblical truth that he is being judgmental, proud and Pharisaical?

Sure, people standing up for truth can at times be guilty of all three things. But one can be fully loving, humble and Christlike, and also hold strongly to theological truth. Indeed, Jesus himself could get quite disturbed about false doctrine and practice, saying he hated the practices and doctrines of the Nicolatians, (Rev 2:6, 15) If Jesus thinks this is important, then why shouldn’t we?

Your last plea (about accepting those who differ) of course must cut both ways. If you think those who have some concerns about the emergents should learn to accept and love the emergents, then surely it works the other way: the emergents should learn to accept and love those who express their concerns as well. (And another false dilemma here: is it not possible to love and accept another person while still offering criticisms and assessments of their position?) Again with all due respect, you seem to be taking a stand against those expressing concern, thus continuing the very us/them divisions that you seem to so dislike.

You also seem to imply that having debates or disagreements is somehow wrong, ungodly or uncalled for. But I do not see a problem with healthy debate. The Bible features plenty of it. So I do not mind discussing these issues, and do not think it is unspiritual to do so. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and taking time to comment. Blessings,

Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch